Sleep Training: Reason to Believe This Will Work?

[Mac 'n K's Mommy]

I'm attempting round 2 of sleep training with 4 mo old DS (I bailed out on round 1 when we'd gone a couple of weeks with only sporadic success.) On day 3 I feel that things are really going quite well, but I'd still like to share my approach to ensure it seems 'right' and that I have reason to believe it will lead to independent sleep this time.

Our day begins whenever Kempton wakes for food between 7:45 and 8:00.
After about 2 hours of A time I swaddle him up (one arm out- a recent transition that seems to be going well) and lay him down. Through trial and error I've discovered that he does better without much of a wind down- I lay him down wide awake and he drifts off with never more than a couple minutes of mantra cry.
Kempton always wakes after 30-50 min of napping, usually happily cooing in bed. I go in, hold jolts and shh back to sleep. (I have tried other W2S methods and this really seems to be best for us.) It's sad to go in and have him smiling up at me (even in well darkened room) and be the one to make him start wailing by insisting that he go back to sleep.    Fortunately, the longest I've ever had to stay in there is 20 min and at least half of that is with him quietly falling back to sleep.
Probably 75% of the time I am then waking him at the 2-hour mark since laying down for a nap, the other 25% he wakes himself after a decent enough amount of sleep so I let him get up.

My questions/concerns:
I never soothe back to sleep for any nap that starts after 4:30 because we are in the catnap phase; I also have not yet dared try sleep training at night (for various reasons)- could this inconsistency be a problem?

Does this approach seem okay and do I have reason to believe that it will lead to independent sleep eventually? I would really like to dedicate the necessary time with the right approach now so that we can establish good sleeping habits before we move back to our hometown for the summer in 1 month and have grandparents, friends and relatives all around.

[Aly Mac]

Mandi, your approach certainly seems sound.  YOu seem to know what your lo needs ie: less windown etc, and you respond accordingly.  I would say that if you are getting a 30min nap, his A time may have been a little long, as this is usually due to overtiredness.  For his age, 2hrs is the maximum A time - of course bubs are different, but if you find you get those 3o min naps, then maybe put him down 10mins earlier.  Ideally, you want the max 2hrs to be from first wake up to eyes closed asleep.

You are right after 4.30 - no point then. 

In regards to not sleep training at night, it depends on hwat you do at night when he wakes, as to wether it will conflict with the day and undo the good work.  can you tell me what you do when he wakes at night? and what time asleep and how often he may wake?

[Mac 'n K's Mommy]

I have been wondering if there is something to finding the PERFECT amount of A time for each LO- maybe I do need a bit less... though in the past two months (since nap troubles started) I swear we have probably had every variation of A time from 1 hour to over 2 hours and the troubles have remained.

Here's the deal with our nights: we have always had to feed back to sleep during night wakings- since birth. For the first couple months of his life he NEVER had more than 1 NW and it was always pretty obvious he was hungry. Now that he often has 2 NWs I am pretty sure that he's not hungry (esp. since when we feed he often falls back to sleep after 10 min which is quick for him), but the few times I have tried to soothe back to sleep without food it has been a DISASTER! I haven't tried too recently, but I'm honestly afraid- partly because I start to doubt my ability to make the call on whether or not he's hungry and partly because it's just so easy to feed. I think I'm secretly hoping that if we sort out the daytime sleep that the nights will work themselves out?! (Sorry if that got to be a bit rambly...)

[Aly Mac]

just remember it is normal for him to have a feed at night, esp if you are breastfeeding.

If you post your whole routine, maybe we can see if there is anything else that could help you both.

[Nicole-Momtomegan]

Mandi,
Your sleep training approach seems great. However, you said you're hoping it leads to independant sleep? Since he's putting himself to sleep for naps and bedtime ....that IS independant sleep. It sounds like the sleep training You're doing is actually to extend naps. I can almost guarantee you, that with you being this consistent and the fact that he is going back to sleep most times within 20min he will eventually stop waking at the 3-50min mark and take great naps! he sounds like a great baby!
Megan NEVER went back to sleep with all the PU/PD I did from 4-6mo's. but at 6mo's she started taking 2 2hr naps:) Kempton sounds like he's just going through that terrible short napping phase and your consistency is sure to teach him eventually to stop waking and sleep longer:)
As for nights, my thoughts are just like yours..Erika is putting herself to sleep for naps but when she wakes at night (not every night) i've always fed her back to sleep. so far it has not effected our days and since the nw's have become less and less frequent i'm hoping she'll just stop waking all together soon. I will wait and when i'm sure that the wakings have moved from hunger to habit, I will start sleep training for night wakings:)

hope that helps some....sorry for my rambling:)

Nicole

[Mac 'n K's Mommy]

Nicole- THANKS! You said just what I wanted to hear. You're right that I used the wrong phrasing in saying we're working toward independent sleep; Kempton has always been a good, independent sleeper he just needs to figure out how to use these skills to help him get through the mid-nap wakings. He actually did wake and put himself back to sleep with no more than a few grunts on Sunday afternoon!  I saw that you've been doing some posting of your own regarding Erika's sleeping so I'll send hugs and hope that things will improve your way! Also, it's time that Kempton and I move up in the birth clubs so I my see you on the 4-6 mo thread.

Aly Mac- our days seem to be improving overall, but last night was a new WORST?!  It's tough to post a schedule as our's seems to be somewhat sporadic lately. More and more I am thinking that the NWs may be teething related- Kempton's 2 bottom teeth are really pushing through. I just wish I felt better about my instincts regarding the need for food. 

[claires mum]

Mandi...don't worry about the 2 feeds at night.  This is completely normal.  You can postpone that  worrying until 7 months or later!

You both seem to be doing very well....if he is teething then he will wake and be difficult to settle without some lovin' or some pain meds.  Teething pain tends to last in 3 day bouts...and then the pain dissipates for a while and then comes back a bit later. 

As per Aleesa's comments, try and keep that A time to 2 hours maximum and work towards 2*1.5/2 hour naps + a catnap.  If the NWs persist after a few days, perhaps post your schedule anyway..even if it is a bit all over the place.

[Mac 'n K's Mommy]

Mandi...don't worry about the 2 feeds at night.  This is completely normal.  You can postpone that  worrying until 7 months or later!

This is also what I'm needing to hear. The truth is, it's always been at least 3 hours and if I just feed him (most of the time he'll take a good feed) then he drifts back off to sleep and it's not that big a deal.

As per Aleesa's comments, try and keep that A time to 2 hours maximum and work towards 2*1.5/2 hour naps + a catnap.  If the NWs persist after a few days, perhaps post your schedule anyway..even if it is a bit all over the place.

While the actual times aren't extremely consistent, we have worked our days into a pretty regular routine of E, 2 hours A, and at least 1.5 hours S (usually with one extension effort- though he has had 2 naps that lasted 1 hr 45 min with no intervention!  ) DH is worried that the extra daytime sleep is affecting the nighttime sleep (as the worsened nights seems to coincide with daytime improvement)?! According to everything I've read, this shouldn't be the case and I'm hoping it's just a coincidence.

Anyway, thanks for your thoughts.
X

[claires mum]

That all sounds really good to me...well done to you and your LO.  What is the last A time of the day like...how long is it generally?  Do you manage to get a catnap in there somewhere and if so, for how long.

It will be interesting to see if this is a teething/developmental issue.  As my friend tells me...blame everything on teething...it'll all be over when they get their wisdom teeth at 18!!  Got to find the humour somewhere.

[Mac 'n K's Mommy]

HA! Love the teething comment.
I'm actually continuing to feel better and better about our daytime sleep and routine in general. You did hit on one area that's less than perfect... we're hit and miss on getting a good catnap at the end of the day; it really depends on how late our day actually gets started. But more and more I'm thinking I may need to jump over to the NW board because that is our new area of MAJOR CONCERN. Today I really pushed for 4-hours between feeds (per your advice on previous post) and then encouraged Kempton to feed on both sides (something we've never done) to get extra food in him in hopes that it will help him sleep tonight. We'll see how it goes!

[claires mum]

Aly Mac and Nicole are both good sounding boards for NWs too...so I'm sure it will be OK to keep adding to this thread providing we can all continue to help you.

Are the nights better when you get 2*1.5 hour naps + a catnap during the day?  I know the catnap is really hard...it's the nap that they least want but the one that they really need to get them to bedtime without becoming OT. 

If you think this will work then give it a go to get the catnap to happen:  walk in the pram with a cover to keep stimulation to a minimum/car ride/swing.  It won't create a sleep prop issue as it's only for one nap ..

Feeding on both sides every 4 hours is a great way to go...it will stretch his tummy and that's the key to getting him to eat more and stay fuller for longer!

[Mac 'n K's Mommy]

Are the nights better when you get 2*1.5 hour naps + a catnap during the day?  I know the catnap is really hard...it's the nap that they least want but the one that they really need to get them to bedtime without becoming OT. 

Unfortunately the answer to the first question is a resounding NO! I keep a fairly detailed EASY log and as I look over my notes I can't see a common trend at all! I can see that the NWs moved from consistently 1 to 2 (or even 3) on Monday, April 7. That was a few days before I really hit the nap training hard... but regardless of how well he does with daytime sleep (even with a great catnap) he's now stuck in a rut with 2-3 NWs. I know that I am HORRIBLE about it too because I have just resorted to popping him on the breast for instant soothing. I'm ready to tackle this (I think  ) but need to be sure I go about it the right way. I've been reading some tips in BWSAYP and have some ideas that I want to run by ya'll, but I hear my little guy calling out a need for nap extension help... which reminds me of one other quick question: should I be rushing in at first stirring sound to try and soothe him before he wakes completely or wait until the mantra turns to serious cry? Our experience has been that once he gets vocal he always eventually needs my help, but maybe I haven't been giving him enough time to 'mantra' himself back to sleep?! I always want to do things just right... I'm realizing that I'm far too much of a perfectionist for motherhood... I've got to work on that!

[claires mum]

Hmmm...he's probably built up some OTness overtime and perhaps that's why you can't easily identify a trend???  So I still think you need to work hard at 2*1.5 hour naps and a catnap of 45 minutes.  If you can get this to work for 3-5 days, I think you will see some improvement in the NWs. 

Popping him on the breast..oh dear!!!  I did that too...short term pay off vs LONG TERM PAIN!!!! 

BW recommends that you don't rush in at the first cry...you wait until it escalates to an 'I need you cry".  When babies can't resettle themselves, it almost always escalates.  So this is a sign that your LO needs to learn those sleep skills.  This is one technique to help you out:

1) wait until the cry escalates
2)  go in and reassure/settle
3)  walk out
4)  if he starts crying again...wait for the 'I need you cry' and then wait one minute before going back in
5)  repeat...each time just let that one minute grow a little so he can handle 5 minutes.  Then you can always wait 5 minutes before going in to re-settle during a nap.  Hopefully he'll put himself back to sleep in that 5 minute period.

However....given that your LO is OT I would probably be in his room at the 30/45 minute mark and just use a gentle shh/pat to help him get to the next sleep cycle.  I find that if you have an OT baby AND you do PU/PD or WI/WO...it usually doesn't work as they just can't settle at all because they are SO OT.

Looking forward to the next post!

[Mac 'n K's Mommy]

Claire's Mum (I'm afraid I don't know your first name)- Thanks for sticking with me on this!
So with naps: I think I was so afraid of making Kempton CIO that I was rushing in to rescue before it was truly necessary. Twice now I have distracted myself by doing something quietly near his room when he does his mid-nap wake up and found that he'll soothe himself back to sleep in less than 10 min (possibly quicker than it would have taken with my help!) His cry sounds a little more serious than mantra but because he gets himself back to sleep so quickly I am thinking it okay?! Overall, our days are still going pretty well.
As for last night: Kempton woke at 2:30ish and I was all psyched to try and soothe him back to sleep, and I even tried for about 15 min. I broke down, however, due to: his weak sounding kitten cries, grumbly tummy, sucking on my neck/face, and remembering that we had both fallen asleep during DF so I had no idea how well he had 'tanked up'. But then he did take a full feed and I didn't hear from him again until after 7:00! So overall I'd call it a pretty good night... improvement for sure!

[Aly Mac]

Great to hear Mandi!  Sorry I haven't been replying, but didn't have anything to add to Claire's mum's comments

As for last night: you did great.  He was obviously trying.  I know how hard it is - you hear then cry, you wait to see if it's a mantra or not, you decide to go in with all the resolve to soothe back to sleep without feeding. and they you go in and you hear that cry and you feed anyway. But it was the right thing to do.  Sounds like he was hungry, which was fine.  YOu are reading his cues just right!

I think most of us go through that stage, where you realise that while not wanting to let them CIO that you go in early instead....

I hope you have a great day.