Really got to break this habit - please help!!

[bethanys mummy]

Hi all

to try to summarise a tale that has been going on and on.

About 2 months ago Bethany was doing something like this:

7am start
11.30-1 nap
4.45-5.15 cat nap
asleep about 8.30pm

was worried about her total / night time sleep. Tried W2S a few times about 5.30 am, had sucess a couple of times but nightmares other times. Not sure if the 10.5 hrs sleep was habit, a problem, or just the way she is

Well since then we have had allot of turmoil with a few illnesses - colds, viral infection, fever, diorreah, teething... the list goes on, and we were away a week as well. So things have been a mess with NW's, AP etc. No illnesses now... I hope

The thing that worries me is she is still sleeping 10.5 hrs max, sometimes only 10 hours. This was even happening when she was very tired from being ill, ie she would sleep for 10.5 hours, be awake and whiney for 2hours, sleep for 3 hours. Allot of the time now she is moaning round the cot in the morning when she wakes, obviously still tired

This may sound contradictory but I also think she is ready for one nap. Dont worry, I know its not as simple as that..... it does not happen at the flick of a switch - but the point is, when she is well rested at night (eg by some miracle I get her back to sleep, or after w2s did work) or after her nap (if she has about 2 hrs) then she is happy staying awake for 5+ hours and goes to sleep easily in her cot etc. Also the above routine has been in place since about xmas so a change may be overdue. So even though we have not had a firm routine for a good while then I think she could have..

7.30 am wake up
12.30 - 2.30 nap
8 milk, asleep 8.30 (ie 11 hours sleep please!!)

But we are in a mess right now and its all because she is still doing 10-10.5 hours sleep at night. So she is often waking tired, either needing a quick cat nap pre or post her big nap.This is really really getting me down now. It may sound silly for just 30-60mins of sleep but when she wakes and moans it wakes her sister up who needs to go to school etc. I worry about what sleep she has had all the time and whether it will make her wake up a different time or not..... yet there does not seem to be a pattern!! and this is really messing up our days, times with DD1 etc. Almost feel like I have a young baby without a routine again...

Please help!! Options I have thought of...

- W2S - those 2 times it worked were great but when it didn't.... and should I try to have one nap days as well to try to "make" her tired enough?
- WIWO / PUPD etc - I know this is tough in the am, and sooner or later we have to go to work / take DD1 to school etc!!! again, one nap beforehand to make her tired?
- earlier bed time? is she OT?but sadly I bet she will still only do 10-10.5 hrs (but then do WIWO??). One nap??

Please please help

Thanks for your time ladies

E x
 

[bethanys mummy]

Anythoughts out there? or is she a lost cause...........??!

[claires mum]

LOL...not a lost cause.  I'm going through the 2-1 nap transition at the moment.  Claire is just over 12 months and I was almost certain that she had a very very low sleep requirement. She would only sleep 10.5 hours at night and 1.5-2 hours during the day (2 naps).  What I've finally realised is that she is OT and it has just been building up very gradually over a period of a month..resulting in even earlier wakings (9.5/10 hours sleep) and only 2*45 minute naps during the day.  She seemed fine but was starting to  resist all of her naps...previously she was a great napper.  So this is what I've done:

1)  keep to 2 naps a day.  First nap is a bridging nap of 45 minutes.  I've moved this nap to the early part of the morning...just 2.5 hours after she wakes.  Previously she would be awake between and 3.5 hours.  This is a strategy Aly Mac used...found it on one of the FAQ sheets. 

Second nap is 1.5 hours after 3 hours/3.5 hours of A time.  I have to go in at the 45 min mark and shh/pat if required to get to the second 45 mins. 

2)  to bed early.  I tried 7.00, 7.30, 8.00 ....to see if I could get rid of the 5.00am waking.  None worked.  I started earlier bedtimes around 6.00/6.30pm.  She still woke at 5.00am..but at least she was getting closer to 11 hours of sleep rather than 10.

3)  W2S at 4.00am.  I started this today.. with success.  The result was a 6.30am wake up instead of 5.00 (12.5 hours sleep!!!).

My routine is currently looking like this:

6.30 am wakeup
9.00 am catnap (45 mins)
1.00/1.30 pm nap (1.5 hours)
6.30 pm sleep

I'm guessing that once the OTness is corrected, I'll need to tweak the routine again as she will probably want to move back to longer A times.  At the moment, the shorter A times, early am nap and earlier bedtime is working for us.  Is there anything here you can use? 

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks very much for your reply.........

ooh undertired, overtired, the eternal question hey!!

And despite my notes above about the one nap, I am starting to suspect that she is OT... yesterday she did not have allot of sleep, long story, lets just say the neighbours were doing some DIY.... ::)Despite this she babbled on and on at bedtime and did not go to sleep until 9pm!!!! And todays wake up time? 6.30 am... so only 9.5 hours sleep now!!! DH went in to try to settle her (when we leave her she gets more and more awake so thought we could catch her and resettle her) but she was having none of it. We then left her in her cot where she played and then hollered for more attention. Finally gave her her milk at 7.20 when she promptly (and I mean quickly) fell asleep. Grrrrrrr!!!  >:(Let her have half an hour before had to get her up for nursery / work etc

As for the ideas above re sleep, yes I am sure that I can use some of it, wont be able to replicate the exact timings though since she has to go on the school run 2 days a week and thats at 3.30pm so is a right pain.  ::)and the other 3 days she is at nursery so I will see what I can get put in there. In the end though its about getting more sleep into them one way or another but still trying to protect the bedtime. If she does not get a second nap then I will be brave and go for an earlier bedtime- which is what I should have been doing all along of course but with the illnesses, her seeming fine inbetween and my fear of earlier wake ups ( I would just die at 5 am...)

How long before the OT is corrected, and how do you know??!!!

Thanks again

E x

[claires mum]

I'm glad to being going through this with someone else... this is such a **** frustrating phase !!  Of all of the tips/tricks I would start with the early bedtime.  Your LO is replicating mine to the letter almost.  I got to a very late bedtime and the *same 5.00am* start to the day...so just 9.5 hours sleep.  Going to bed early/late made no difference to the wake up time...so to bed early is the rule at the moment.  W2S is working to extend the 5.00am wake up to 6.30ish.  Almost unheard of that Claire would sleep 12 hours at night. 

BUT..today I made a mistake.  She had tired signs at 8.30am (just 2 hours A time) and I thought that was too early, so I ignored that and waited for the 2.5 hour A time.  AND bingo...no prize for you ... no nap.  So given that she had a 12 hour night I'm going for broke and we'll have just one nap today + early bedtime.  Tomorrow she'll probably be a little OT from today...so I'll go back to 2 naps.  And so it goes...I judge each day as it comes.

I always know when OT is corrected as she sleeps really well for all her naps/night...and then then next day I start to get a little nap resistance again.  This is my cue to extend the A time....which creates an OT build up over a few weeks and then I have to correct it again.

Hope this helps...it's very frustrating and I can't wait to get to one nap and 12 hours night sleep.  If I see it..it will happen right???  Keep posting as it really helps to have company!

[bethanys mummy]

Will keep posting.... hope we catch up with you soon on the night time sleep front!! Yesterday was not great, 1, 10 at nursery followed by 45 mins later on (we tend to do our nap with the long one first as she is more consistent with this one and then we avoid the clash with the school run) but prob a bit too late in the day so she babbled in bed until 9pm again... but at least until did 10 hrs with no NW's to 7am. Nursery are under strict instructions to put her down no later than 11 and then again at 4-430 which should give her her a sleep time of 8pm, we can but live in hope if I move it bit by bit

One question, when did you start the W2S? was it after a few days of trying to correct the OT with 2 naps and early bedtime?

Thanks

[claires mum]

Yes...it was after a few days of trying to correct OT...and it also happened that I woke at the right time in the morning and thought...what the heck I'm up, may as well give it a go.  So it was a bit of a fluke really.

Did one nap yesterday and early bedtime...expected the fallout at night and sure enough it happened.  Had a NW at 10.30, wet the bed, changed and woke up completely..took an hour to get back to sleep.  But the good news is that she went to bed at 6.00pm and woke at 6.00am (so had 11 hours sleep all up).  So I feel like I at least know what to expect when naps aren't as planned.

[bethanys mummy]

Glad things ok ish for you.... not so for us yet

Annoyed with nursery on Tues, they put her down just after 11 as requested but when she did only 40 mins they did not put her down again for another 4 hours!!! So annoyed. And then when she did sleep again they let her sleep for ages, so she would not go down at night again until 9pm. Did 9pm - 8am with a half an hour NW at 5.30 am, so 10.5 hours

She was with my grandparents today. Was worried that when she had 2 hours from 11.10 to 1.30 that she would not nap again but Mum got another 40 mins in her at about 4 pm. Thought that was great for her still being tired to sleep at 8pm but once again she would not sleep until 9pm!! Arggh! Its really hard to fit 2 naps in the day and then get her to sleep early at night, trying to up her daily sleep but finding it hard to get it in!!! But I guess the amount of day sleep she got in backs up the idea of being OT - who knows??

We trundle on....

E x

[claires mum]

I had a crap night last night ....woke at 2 and was wide awake until 3.30...then woke at 5.15.  So I guess I have to go back to the drawing board too.  It seems to me that this stage create OTness after a week of one routine, then a change is made and they get UT after a week and on and on it goes.  Very very frustrating.  We're not alone though, there are some horrid threads about the 2-1 nap transition.  Seems that this is *normal*!

Sorry to hear about daycare...that must be really frustrating.

[bethanys mummy]

Hi

hop you dont mind, have asked Aly Mac and Layla to help me out too..... I work 4 days a week and am hoping to really make a difference the next few days (she only slept 9-6.30 last night...))

I put:

*******************

Ladies

Can I ask for your help on my post as I am seriously messing up and am not sure how to fix it. My lo is getting more and more OT. I am trying to get more sleep into her but she is refusing to go to bed for an hour or more at night and then only sleeping for 9.5 hours, undoing any good work from naps in the day. I appreciate these things take time but not sure how I can make things turn the corner if I can’t get the sleep in her!!

Also really starting to effect DD1 when she can’t get to sleep at night with Bethany hollering her head off and then early rising too

Please bear in mind that I work 4 days a week (Mon – Thurs) although the nursery and my parents are good at following my requests they are not as diligent as I might be. That’s another reason for me asking for your help re nap, A and bed times now as I have 3 days coming up to start to start to make a difference!! Her wake up times vary so I need to have a plan of action to suit all possibilities

Also her 1st nap has always been the best and longest so its best to stick with this, esp as a longer afternoon nap  clashes with the school run

Finally I do struggle to get a bed time earlier than 7.30 as I have both kids, homework, baths and bed to deal with after work

Sorry its such a mess, do hope you can help…………mission impossible??!!!

Thanks so much
************************

E x

[Aly Mac]

Emma,  I really can't add anymore than what Claires mum has suggested.  Her advice is what I would say.  Early to beds work for us, as well as two nap days.  I find it really is a day to day thing, with unpredictability.  YOu have developmental leaps as well as normally the worst of the teeth to come through, along with change in sleep patterns.  I'm just riding it out day by day at the moment.  Just don't push the A time if her cues are telling you differently.  Today, we were out and I pushed her one nap later than usual and ended up with a 45min nap and the next hour of crying and screaming as she was tired.  Funny now they are older, you really need early to bed, because with this kind of OT they seem to take longer to actually fall asleep.  I'm expecting a nw or ew tonight - all because I was having a good time.....

Daycare really need to listen to you. Tell them what happened, the consequences.

I'm sorry I can't help more, but as I said Claire's mum is telling you all the right things.  Keep us posted as to how you get on.

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks for trying!!

I had a long chat with nursery and they will try for me. I had hoped today with her short night and 6.30 am wake up to have say 1.5 hours at 10-11.30 and then say another hour about 3.30 ish with a bedtime of 8pm, ie nicely spaced out sleep but still tired for bed.

Just rung them and she only slept 1/2 hr this am... refused to sleep again at midday but went down again at 1.30 and been asleep an hour so far. I am hoping she will do 2 hours and this will take her to 3.30 which should be ok for a 7.30-8 bedtime but she never does what I want!!!

Just trying really hard to get sleep into her to overcome the OT, but seem to take more backward steps than forward ones as the little tinker wont conform!!

[claires mum]

Emma, the more brains the better...so I would never be upset that you asked for other's opinions!!! 

I really found that the early bedtime was a key to getting in some more sleep...particularly if the day naps were screwed up.  Funny thing...last night I decided to go back to a slightly later bedtime (4 hours A time from pm nap) to see if she would go back to an earlier routine that worked for us.  BAD IDEA...she had another NW and woke at 5.30am.  So I'm following my own advice (hard!!!) and going for an early bedtime tonight..

Lets hope we can come up with something that works for us for a little while at least.  I'm not looking forward to 5 or so months of daily/weekly adjustments either....but it sounds like that's what we might be in for.  Just as well they are cute!!!!

[bethanys mummy]

No could not cope with 5 months either!!!

Help!!!

So yesterday she did 1, 50 at nursery so awake at 3.15. Started feeding her at 7.30, really long bf to hope to wind her down. Seemed to work as she went to sleep at 8.15. Not early by most standards but it was by herself and an hour earlier than recent nightmares!!

Desperately hoped she would sleep until 6.30 - 7 at least ie earlier bedtime meant getting in more sleep but she was up at 6.20 so only 10 hours again!! Arrgh, will this Early bedtime work for us??? Feel so frustrated, putting so much effort in for no result?? Now really worried about her naps today as if the am nap does not last long (about 10am?? Any thoughts?) then the pm nap clashes with school pick up...

Also starting to feel resentful at lack of sleep (busy time of year at work at moment does not help) and her sleep dictating the whole household - DD1 has a dance concert tonight but she is now tired for it. I missed it last year as Bethany was so young, it starts at 7.30 and DD1 is one of the first on so I had thought we could all go, but now someone will have to miss it to get Bethany to bed early, only for her to do 10 hours again!!! Argggh!!!

Would have been nice to take DD1 to the park after school today.... but cant as Bethany will probably need sleep.

Sorry just really frustrated, but also really worried as cant see a way out of this

Am I just reinforcing the 10 hour nights by letting her sleep in the day?? Contradicting myself I know, ignore me, frustrated

Off on the school run now.....

E x

[claires mum]

HUGS!!!! 

That sucks...no doubt about it. But as Mum's we make these sacrifices and hope that our kids won't throw us in an old age home at the first sign of dementia.  AT the rate I'm going that should be next week.

Could it be time to try an even earlier start to wind down/bedtime.  So maybe if she woke at 6.30am, shoot for a 6.30/7.00 bedtime?  Maybe..just maybe... if you can get her sleeping by this time she'll sleep for 11 hours.

BTW...I've started independent sleep training again as I figured the NWs were the result of bad habits (mine not Claire's).  We've been doing WI/WO for 2 days with LOTS of tears ... but starting to see some results.  Had an 11 hour night last night 6.30 pm - 5.30 am.  Can't move these early mornings...at all!

Let me know what you decide to do and if it works for you or not.  Try and pick a time next week where the whole family can have some fun together...got to have something to look forward.  We're going out for an early (!!) breakfast at the beach.