W2S for EW's chaos, please help!!

[bethanys mummy]

Hi all. I posted this on the toddler board the other day but sadly no replies (lost cause or very busy board!!) so hoping for some thoughts here. I have put an update on the bottom

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Sorry all, me again

Ok so last week I posted because Bethnay's habitual 10.5 hour nights were getting shorter. After great help from Claire's Mum  we figures out she was OT.  We packed some day time sleep into her and when her settling at bedtime and for naps improved I tried W2S last weekend and was delighted it worked. Thanks Tracy!!   3 days of bliss with the same.

All went wrong last Tuesday. Only slept 1.5 hours at nursery and refused 2nd nap. DH away and DD1 had to be picked up from somewhere so no chance for an early night. When she eventually got to bed she took an hour to go to sleep then only had 10.5 hours. Def OT. Miserable on waking. Not good .......

So tried to get more sleep in her to catch up. Wed she had 2 hour nap plus 40 mins. Better to sleep at night but still only 10.5 hours

Thurs - 1 hour nap and 40 mins. Ditto but when she woke during w2s I was eventually able to get her back to sleep and she did 11.5 hours so obviously had been still tired.

But therefore a good start for friday with 11.5 hours in her. Did 1.5 hour nap plus 30 min cat nap. Went to sleep great. Also when I went in to do w2s she did not seem restless (as she had done the past few days) but tight asleep. So I was really optimistic that we were back on top..... but she woke after 10 hours!!!! ie worse!! obviously still tired, etc etc

So what is wrong? IS she still OT from last Tuesday?? Can one day really throw her that much??!!!

I should mention that she did have her MMR jab yesterday and I know this can cause issues, but she really seemed fine afterwards and does seem happy enough so am ruling this out

Any thoughts appreciated

E x
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Update.

Well last nights W2S worked a bit better. Problem being that she woke fully and had to be AP'd back to sleep.

So my dilemma seems to be
(a) If I try just stirring her for W2S it may not work (of course I don't know until an hour later when she wakes up!) - so we have 10 hour nights with EW, OT, miserable, needs x2 long naps to keep up with sleep, whole family woken early and grumpy etc

(b) wake her fully with W2S but then she is very grumpy and does not want to settle so needs to be AP'd (either ages of patting or a short bf, with the latter she does go back in the cot awake). And we all know what this may lead to.

The latter is tempting, I am thinking it may break the habit of her body being OT and expecting 10 hours sleep, but lets face it its AP habit time!!! Could do it for a week then do gradual withdrawal / WIWO

PS she does not get fed to sleep at any other time except emergencies ie extreme OT or plane journeys!!

Any thoughts!! Thanks for your help in advance

E x

[elmarie]

Hi Emma,

I have not read the previous posts so forgive me if I ask questions you have answered before ...

Are you doing w2s because she waking the same time into a nap and night sleep?

Are you doing w2s with every nap and night time sleep because from your post it seems as if she has varied lengths of naps...

Would you mind posting her whole routine so we can just have a look at it again. It could be that she could still be suffering from being OT and is maybe also starting the 2-1 switch..

Elmarie 

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks so much for trying to help, it means an awful lot

Bethany had a routine a couple of months ago along the lines of:

7- 730 wake
11.15 - 12.45 sleep (1.5 hours)
4.30 - 5.25 sleep (40 mins)
7.45 bf, down to bed just after 8, asleep by 8.30

So an average 2+ hours of naps. Her 1st nap has usually been the best, and having the catnap 2ND fits with the school run for dd1. 2nd nap gradually got later and shorter since about 10 months as you would expect

The 10.5 hour night worried me but was not sure if it was just habit or could be fixed or would go away, was occasionally dropping to 10 hours.  Tried w2s a few of times, stirring her. sometimes it worked, other times no effect

Then came a few illnesses, mixed up sleeps, weeks holiday etc and a time when she pretended she could have one 2 hour nap and be ok..... leading to OT, and shorter nights. Even before the OT, the illness convinced me the short nights needed to be broken as she still only did 10-10.5 hours at night, then woke and an hour later needed 3 hours sleep so the habit was really stuck hard.

With Claire's Mum's help a couple of weeks ago we tackled the OT by packing daytime sleep in her. But she still only did 10-10.5 hours at night, despite an earlier bedtime so I was stuck in a vicious circle of having 10 hour nights and 2 naps totalling 3 hours in the day to stop the OT. Miserable parents, OT sister, miserable Bethany obviously still tired when waking, naps all over the place, but totalling 3 hours.

ABout 10 days ago W2S, (mostly by) stirring her, worked and we had 3 days of bliss (11 hours at night, naps of about 1.5 hours and 30 mins) then it all went wrong a week ago which is what I detailed above. It was frustrating not being able to get back on track after just one messed up day, hence my post. w2s from stirring having no impact, only working if she fully woke up

Then last night w2s woke her fully again and I AP'd her back to sleep. Hence the dilemma above about how to continue w2s to have any success

Hope this helps to fill in the history. So yes I am doing w2s for every night, not for naps. Agree her naps are all over the place (depending on night sleep!) so could give this a go but 3 days a week she is at nursery and once at grandparents so its a bit limited. But do hope if the nights get sorted the pattern to the day will settle

Undecided if she is still OT or just habit still. If its a 10 hour night she is def OT the next day but there is some element of a habit needing to be broken too.

IF she consistently had 11-11.5 hours at night (well I can but dream) she would be very close to switching to one nap, although I know the road is rocky so would not expect it overnight. But she def can't get there on 10 hours a night!!

Any insight much appreciated, esp on how to continue w2s!!!!

e X

[bethanys mummy]

Sorry

so should say:

- if she has a 10-10.5 hour night we try to put her down about 3 hours later. Depending on how long she sleeps for dictates the 2nd nap, typically 3.5 hours later after a 1 hour nap, 4 + hours later after 1.5 hour nap etc, but following cues

- if we have an 11 hour night then its back to the 1.5 hour 1st nap and a later cat nap

She largely STTN, except for when she was really OT a fortnight ago

E x

[nike]

Just barging here to say that, looking at your (previous) routine, I'd say the 2nd sleep is too late in the day and that that could be mucking up her night-time sleep.  I would think at her age, with such a great wake-up time, she'd most likely be ready for one nap with a little push.  If she's handling the A time in the a.m. then I'd go for broke and skip that last catnap, which as I said is very late, and just do a super early bedtime, like 6 p.m.  With a little time she "should" lengthen that nap and you could slowly move it closer to midday.  I would most definitely think that late catnap would be the cause of the shorter night sleep and that with one consolidated nap it could just work.  HTH!

[bethanys mummy]

Nike - thanks for that, I do appreciate your input on our old routine. Thats kind of what I thought a few weeks ago so we tried the one nap, but with the only 10 hours at night (whatever the bedtime) she got OT pretty fast and it all went wobbly very quickly! I think I really have to break the 10 hour night time before she can handle one nap, then it should be "easy" (!!!!)

So yesterday's story. As I said w2s (with AP) had meant she had 11 hours sleep and woke at 7.45 nicely refreshed and jolly. So told nursery they could put her down at their preferred midday. She only slept an hour...... so had to really put a cat nap in there again 5-5.30. Bedtime of 8 pm but she would not sleep until 9pm - UT ?OT??? arggh

A brief NW and then I did w2s at 5.45. she woke quite a bit moaned and shuffled around for about 5 mins then back to sleep. So I was really pleased that she had woken so much  but gone back off without AP, but then she woke at 6.30 and would not go back to sleep.... now obviously very tired.... and everyone is very miserable as we are not getting anywhere

I really dont know what to do. Sorry I know I am repeating myself but if she could just get some decent night sleep for a week in a row then I am sure the resulting A times could accomodate one nap. As it is she is on a rollercoaster of lengths of sleep and its all such a mess

E x

[nike]

Hi Emma.  Great news on getting her to 7.45   One thing I would suggest is, like I said in my previous post, to not bother with the catnap so late in the afternoon but start your bedtime earlier and have her in bed for the night at that time.  I can almost bet she wasn't ready for the 8 p.m. bedtime bc she was all out of whack from that late catnap.  I know 5.30 sounds like a REALLY early time for bed but if she's OT and sleeping shorter naps then she will be able to catch up on some of those Z's and hopefully get back on track.  While we were in the process of 2-1 nap transition, I sometimes had DS in bed for the night at 5.30 when his nap would end too early in the afternoon.  Even now he can't handle a longer A time at the end of the day.  Eventually when their biorhythyms adjust to the one nap, they will lengthen that nap and thus everything will fall into place.

If she is chroniclly OT then I'd even suggest putting her down a bit earlier for her nap, say 11.30.  I realise nurseries/daycare have routines they adhere to so it may be difficult. 

Why are you using W2S?  Is she habitually waking at the same time?

How did you get on today?

[bethanys mummy]

Hi, thanks again

just to cover your q's (typing quickly at work!)

- we are using w2s because of the habitual waking after 9.5-10.5 hours, usually 10. Hence v scared of early bedtime... but starting to think how we could handle it as a family (with DD1 needs, DH often away etc)
- yesterday with her waking at 7.45 and really happy / refreshed I thought she was not OT and could handle the 4.5 hours to the middle of the day, but then with just an hours nap then I dont know???
- today with the early start and just 9 ish hours sleep I will have to get 2 naps in her, will update you after have rung nursery later

Thanks again ladies

E x

[elmarie]

I do think that she might be OT come bedtime.  remember that 40 min is not restorative so the stretch from the nap to bedtime is too long.  I will not put her to bed more than 1.5h after the nap so bring bedtime forward to 7pm (in bed asleep).  This happened with my LO as well around this age and we sometimes had to do super early bedtimes because of short naps (like 5.30pm-she usually woke up around 6am).  I found that she would not usually wake up earlier but the same time.

I do think that you could maybe also start the 2-1 switch by cutting the morning nap so that you can start extending the pm nap.  Please pop over to the 2-1 thread for more info

HTH

E X

[bethanys mummy]

ooooh sorry a little confused. So are you saying that you think its ok to keep the catnap say 5-5.30 then bed time about 7 ish, this is not too close? So this is different to what nike suggested about skipping it altogether as she is UT for bed? Sorry dont mean to be controversial by saying there are different opinions, I cant make my own mind up..... in fact it makes me feel better about being confused myself!!

I have just rung the nursery and she only did 45 mins from 10-10.45 so I have asked them to try again about 2 o clock. I will feel so sick if she only short naps again

Thanks re the info on the 2 to 1 nap, have read the post lots of times. Unless you think I am crazy then I have to actually stick to the idea of the longer first nap / shorter 2nd. This is because (a) the first nap (used to be..) her most consistent (b) if I have a long 2nd nap it clashes with the school run pick up for dd1 a few days a week so it all goes pear shaped

What do you think about continuing the w2s and how much to wake her? ie wake her fully and AP or stir her and deal with the consequences

Soooooooooooo sorry for so many questions, I feel quite depressed about it, its really getting me down. Its all such a mess

E x

[elmarie]

I mean if she is not having two proper naps the 30-40min one will not be restorative nap so the A time should be shorter to avoid being OT, thus bringing bedtime forward to avoid OT. So yes, I agree with pp that you cannot have a catnap too close to her bedtime otherwise it will interfere with night time.  Of course you need to do what works for you, but generally the best way to start the switch is to cut the morning nap as to extend the pm nap until their is only one nap which usually ends up being around noon 

Unfortunately I have no experience with w2s so cannot give any advice.  I'm sure somebody with experience will chime in

Elmarie 

[bethanys mummy]

Thanks again

well I need to be careful what I wished for.. she had to be woken up after a 2.5 hour nap this afternoon (she likes to make mummy a liar about the 1st nap being her best...). Great for tackling the OT, not so great for dealing with the going to bed early!!

E x

[nike]

So sorry for making you confused - that was not my intention, just offering a different perspective, based on my own experience of the recent 2-1 nap switch.

It may be that if you cut the a.m. nap short you may get a longer p.m. nap, as Elmarie suggested, but in our case that was a huge disaster   No matter how much (or not) sleep he'd have in the a.m., he would blatantly refuse the p.m. nap altogether   On one memorable day he slept from 9 till 10 a.m. (I woke him with the thought of preserving that p.m. nap) but that was it for the rest of the day   I just could not get him down again.  So it was bed at 5.30 p.m. that day! 

So it was obvious in our case that he favoured the a.m. nap, in which case we needed to keep that one but extend his A time in the morning to get him to a decent time for one nap.  I think I managed to dodge the EWs by keeping his bedtime super early.  It shocked me at how quickly the whole nap refusal/routine change happened - one day he was sleeping 9-11 a.m. and 2-4 p.m., bedtime at 7 and sleeping through till 7.  It's almost like overnight it all went pear shaped!

Anyhow, I digress.  I personally would try her on the one nap, remembering that it will take her time to adjust.  If you get a good wake-up time, like the other morning, put her down close to midday (which fits in with her nursery's routine) and cross your fingers you get more than an hour out of her   Keep bedtime super early while the transition is occuring.  Just don't put her to bed any later than 5 hours after wake-up - and of course watch closely for tired signs.  I think I mentioned in a previous post that often if they do a great nap you think "oh, I'll put her down a bit later for the night then", but you have to remember that during the transition they most likely will be OT whilst getting used to those extended A times, so early to bed to give her a chance to catch up and hopefully avoid chronic OT.

I also don't have any experience with W2S sorry, but I do think you won't have to do this at all if you eliminate that late catnap. 

[bethanys mummy]

Again, thanks sooooo much for your input. Dont mind getting confused, its part of the course!!!

Yes I need myself a run of good nights, to try the one nap, building in early nights etc, I really think we can do it if we have some stability which has been sadly lacking recently!!

And you are so right about the A times after a good nap and not pushing it, you can often seem to get away with it for one day, but the OT builds up so best not to start!!

Last night not too bad, she took a while to go to sleep (babbling not crying) and work after 10.5 hours, despite w2s but the point was she woke happy (not moaning around the cot) so I imagine it was the long later nap that did this. So we might be on the start of something good, I can but hope (and try to ignore the fact that she may be getting a cold!)

Thanks again

E x

[elmarie]