How to handle increasing A times.

[Deb_in_oz]

ok at first i was like oh i see OT wakings and then i saw 11 ounces for DF and i am wondering if that big a feed upset his tummy a bit.  do you actually have bigger bottles than we do in Oz because we usually have 8oz bottles on average here (or smaller 4 oz ones).  i know Le was downing 10-12oz during his growth spurt and i said back then that those were too big a feed and shoudl be looked at as in 2 bottles he was taking a huge % of his days calories.  as much as you are hesitant about overnight feeds i would limit his DF to 8oz max and examine his day feeds again - a more common problem is people having lo who won't take much at a DF and him downing so much is a major red flag to me since he ate all day, had a big bedtime bottle and THEN only 4 hours later is taking in 11oz.  to me that is 2 issues - possible overnight upset tum and why is he talking such a huge feed at that time?

do you get where i am going with these questions/points?  sleeping and eating are so intertwined that sometimes to solve a sleep issue you can look at the food and that will sort it out.

[deckchariot]

I'm with Deb on that one - 11 oz at a df seems like a huge amount...my dd never took more than 6 oz (she was ebf but we did a bottle of ebm for the df).  Does he seem to be eating ok during the day?  You're doing both bottles and bf right?

[sherry lynn]

Hi Guys,
Yesterday was a rough day. But I think we got back on track today.
I don't know what to say about the dream feed. Lyle has been taking 10 ounces for a really really long time. Even way back when he was sleeping through the night.
I upped it to 11 ounces when he downed the bottle. Sometimes he takes 11 ounces really quickly. (Like17-20 minutes, which is fast for Lyle). He's daytime feeds seem good. It's so hard to know with breastfeeding. I've been wondering about this because he slept through the night twice at my mother-in-laws when he was getting lots of bottles of EBM. He always took 8 ounces at every feed and still 11 ounces at the DF. Do you think I should try topping him off with a bottle after I BF him during the day. He just went down from 40 min at the breast to 25-30 which is more appropriate for his age. I even mentioned to DH that I felt like weaning him just to see how much he is eating during the day, but that's not really a rational reason.
I really wonder about my supply in the late afternoon some days. Sometimes on the top off he takes nothing, and then sometimes he takes 6-8 onces only an hour after BF. He woke up from the catnap hysterical today. His naps were okay, about 1h20m for both of them, with extensions. And he was just really fussy. So I fed him even though it wasn't even quite the 3 hour mark, and he ate a full feed. Then I offered the bottle and he didn't really take anything. Then he took a long time to settle for bed, so when it had been an hour from his feeding I offered the bottle again and he ate 6 ounces, then went to bed with no fuss, no pacifier. Which is getting quite rare these days.  Do you think maybe I'm starting to have issues with my supply? I am using a nipple shield, which can cause supply issues, but we haven't really had a problem.

[sherry lynn]

I've been thinking about the DF a lot, so I remembered something else.
About two weeks ago, Lyle was so tired during the DF that he didn't finish all of his DF, he was only taking about 6 oz. But then he woke at 2 or so, and finished the rest of it. This has happened every time that he has taken less than 10 oz Maybe 3 or 4 times over the last two weeks. When Lyle was 2 weeks old he was eating 5 ounces at the breast consistently when I weighed him at BF group. He has always been a really big eater.

Since increasing his A times we are still having NW. Usually 3. Or really 2 plus 1 EW. They are usually around 2 and then 3:30. Then we get a 5 or 5:30 early waking. This morning he woke at 5:30 downed an 8 oz bottle (all formula) and went back to sleep without any help. Woke an hour later and only had a little bit of a smaller feed, just going by time.  When he woke at 2 and 3:30 he was pretty easy to resettle. Didn't show any signs of pain or hunger.
I just started him on solids a few weeks ago, and he eats them with gusto. He already eats a lot of those too. He eats anything I put in front of him.  So as you saw on our time reporting I have actually scheduled them into the day so that I don't forget to give them to him and most of the time he eats quite a bit. The morning is usually the smallest amount, which isn't suprising because he not eats at 5 and 7, so by 8 he isn't all that hungry.

[Deb_in_oz]

not sure what to say sherry but it definitely is a lot of milk in one hit. i do know that when i was so stressed out and anxious with my PPD my supply was always worst in the afternoon and bedtime feeds - my supply was best overnight and first feed of the day.  the first bottles we set as 1st ebm and then formula was the late afternoon feed.

was going to post some ideas and then i decided it is too complicated for me to comment with the mixed feeds.  no way for me to know how much he is getting or whether the huge Df is good or bad etc.  it is one of those things that comes down to your instinct i guess - is there any link between his feeds and his day?  won't explore this further unless you think you need to. does that seem OK?  i am hesitant to speculate or put ideas in your head about feeding iykwim as my ideas would be just that - speculation.

[sherry lynn]

Well we had a really rough night. I was thinking about his NW, and a long time ago you said that maybe I should just feed him when he wakes at 2 so that maybe he won't wake again. That has helped a few times, so I did that last night, and it didn't go so well. He was up for 2 hours. Then up again at 5:20 and again at 6:06. He is already tired, and I have no idea when to put him down. So I just decided to do 2 hours from the 5:20 time. I'm not sure how much he really slept between 5:20 and 6.

He ate 6 1/2 oz at 2:30. Then he was playing around. Rolling onto his tummy etc. He has been side sleeping all of a sudden. So  I don't know if he was falling from side to tummy, and sometimes he could fix himself and sometimes he couldn't.

About day feeds, all I know is Lyle can seem to go 4 hours, but he is really hungry at 4 hours. Sometimes I think that is what wakes him from his nap. And that that is one reason I can't really seem to get two naps in one cycle, it's too close to feeding time.

I don't know what was up with that 2 o'clock waking. He didn't seem to be in any pain, he wasn't even really crying. Well after I would leave he would cry after a little bit. Was it developmental? Or not enough time between the catnap and bed. It ended up being 1 1/2 hours.
Lyle ended up only getting 8 hours of sleep last night, and that's not counting the DF time.

Now he has spit up a whole lot this morning. Not sure what's up with that. Hopefully it's just from being on is tummy right after eating.

[sherry lynn]

Well today was a really rough day. I got two 1h20m naps but that was with extreme intervention. I had to pretty much hold him down from the 20min mark on for both naps and he still woke at 1h20m.
Do you think I should have kept his A time at 2 hours??
I looked through my log to see if I saw a pattern with the 2 hour stints during the night. I was thinking it might be the catnap but that doesn't really seem to be it either.
I looked up feeing in the BW book and it says at this age 8-10 ounces is normal. Most nights lyle eats 10 ounces for the df. Sometimes 11. So I do think that is okay.
I really tried to focus on the feeds today, and I did realize that he eats less at the 2/3 o'clock feed. So I tried to encourage him to eat more. I put him back on each side. When he was done I checked and there was still milk coming out. So I don't think it is a supply thing. Maybe a trying to encourage lyle to eat more thing, but most likely still a schedule issue. It's just that yesterday was okay. The only think I could think was that I put him to bed too soon. But then I also remembered that when I went back in to resettle him he was yawning and rubbing his eyes.

So today he woke from the catnap at 4:20. I went on a walk with him in the rain and he fussed the whole time. I got home, took him out and he was still fussing. So I fed him, it was exactly the 3 hour mark. He happily ate, but I would say it was not a full feed. Then he was fine after that. He played on the floor, seemed happy. So I didn't rush to bedtime like last night. Even though naps were not ideal today. He seemed fine. I gave him a top off. As soon as he seemed to push the bottle away I stopped giving milk. He had 4 ounces. I put him in the crib and he was fine, I left. About 8 minutes later he was crying so I went in, and he was shaking his head from side to side, like he does when he's OT. BUT... I left as soon as he was settled and he put himself to bed. This was almost at the 2 hour mark from when he woke up from the catnap. So we'll see how tonight goes.

If he only takes a 1h20m nap, do you think I should still push the 2h A time?

Let me know if you want the schedule. I don't want to overwhelm you. I sense I'm doing that. I'm so sorry.....
It seems that every time things get okay (ot even great, but okay) we have a major regression. I'm hoping we will be back on track tomorrow. I'm expecting an early morning since he was quiet at about 6:15.

[Deb_in_oz]

sherry i think 1hr20 is a "good" nap and would keep the 2hr A time from that.  more interested in his need for you to stay there to get it - what is happening at 20 min that leads to you going in and then staying through the nap - remember one of the key things we gained that you don't want to lose is letting him resettle.  if he was so OT as to be hysterical you would still stay to calm him and then let him resettle to sleep etc.  he was doing well at independent sleep so i woudl be inclined to keep letting him try to do it himself so he learns to transition etc.

easier to get the feel for the day when you post the simple routine formatted like i did.  it becomes a snapshot of the day that you can compare day to day instead of reading lots of text...

[sherry lynn]

Well one of the mistakes I probably made yesterday was letting him have the DF too early. I should have patted him back to sleep at 9:45 since he had the 6 oz of formula at about 6:50.
9:45 DF
2:20 NW 6 oz of formula
4:06 S
5:30 EW
5:40 S
6:06 Wake and Eat by 6:50 two yawns at 7:20 two more took to bed 2 hours from 5:20 waking, wasn't sure how well/or if he really went back to sleep. He was also falling asleep at the breast
7:43 S was very hard to get him to sleep, so stayed to help him through 30min mark, actually I was sleeping on his floor because I only got 2 hours of sleep last night. He was already flailing his arms at the 20min mark.
9:14 W was very upset when he woke, tried to get him back down because he was not happy to be awake
10:05 E
10:50 solids
11:14 placed in crib, left to let him try to settle to sleep, crying about 10 min later
11:40 S was in hysterics and finally went to sleep didn't need assistance until 30min mark
1:00 Wake
1:54 Eat offered both breasts twice to try to encourage him to eat more
In crib 3:00 again had hysterics until he finally went to sleep
3:30 sleep extended through 35min mark to 50 min
4:20 wake (went on walk in the rain, was upset the whole time)
4:50 Eat
5:50 4 oz formula
6:00 in bed
6:14 asleep
9:00 first NW - guess I made the wrong choice about bedtime

Lyle hasn't been doing so well with settling himself to sleep and making it through transitions since going to 2 h awake time. I am still trying to make sure to leave before he is asleep though and waiting until he calls out to help with transitions, but today and the day before yesterday were really hard and we didn't do so well on the independent sleep front
 

[deckchariot]

Sherry, I think you've made incredible progress with Lyle!  It's normal to have some regression and a string of bad days after some good days.  Lyle's at an age developmentally where there's a lot going on that can (and often does) affect sleep, so I'd hang in there with what you're doing.  Like Deb said, 1 hr 20 nap is a good nap, I'd  keep the 2 hr A time as well.  I think you're doing really well.

[sherry lynn]

thanks,
last night was a little better, not much but still better.
Today has been a lot better. I'll post more later. Thanks so much for everything ladies. I truly would not be able to do this without you guys. I would have given in a long time ago.

[sherry lynn]

9:00PM NW (I think it actually might have been out of hunger, not OT)
9:40 NW gave DF (was planning on giving it at 5:45) He sucked down 12 ounces before I had even really noticed....
2:35 NW (DH forgot that we had talked about just feeding him now instead of at 5, so he tried to put Lyle down for about 30min,
3:00 then fed him (he ate 8 oz)
5:04 EW, kept waking every 10 min, screaming at 5:56
6:00 Eat, I didn't really think about how it had only been 3 hours since previous feed. Seemed to eat a decent amount
7:48 - 9:39 Nap - today I tried something new at the 1h20m mark, I held his arms down with a lot of pressure, and it worked really really well.
10:00 BF
11:00 solids
12:45-1:56  Nap (not in room, woke at 40 min, 1h, and 1h20m stayed at this point, only had to apply pressure a little bit left at 2 hour mark)
2:00 BF
3:00 Solids
Tried for catnap at 3:57 refused, eyes would close then pop right back open - tried for 40 min
Tried for catnap again at 4:55 - tried for 20 min 
After I gave up I left him in the crib - with the light on, and he played for good 20 mins then I took him out of crib and he played on his floor - he had a ton of energy - spastic OT,  I would imagine
5:45 Just decided to offer a bottle ate 6 oz
Bed 6:00 crying 6:15 offered rest of bottle ate 2 more oz, wanted more, but he was falling asleep so I put him in the crib
Asleep at 6:24

So awesome day of naps = no catnap, this has happened before. But we had a very similar day the other day and he catnapped so I thought we would be okay
Maybe next time (if there is a next time) offer the catnap 15min later?? He did seem tired during our walk, and he was rubbing his eyes like mad and yawning.
Maybe is nap tank was just on empty at this point.
I decided I'm going to start weening Lyle to the bottle. I talked a lot about it with DH and I think I'm okay with that decision now.

[Deb_in_oz]

good work Sherry

see how the bottle goes - may need a hungry formula even. i was going to askl how much solids he is taking and what type as he may need more / different food especially at dinner time to add to tanking him up

before you asked about doing catnap later i was going to suggest that while we are working on longer A times and pushing him, maybe you should do 1hr 30 - 1hr 45 for that last one and see if he will go down for the catnap if he is so exhausted.  this is where it comes down to instinct and deciding OT or undertired... hard to gauge from posting back and forth vs. seeing how his body language is in that A time - are you watching for cues?  is he doing anything that suggests tired at about the 1h30 mark??  if not then try the longer A first - up to you, but definitely pollay with that time slot a little - try 3 days of one or the other.

[jennandsophie]

Sherry, two good naps in one day!  A real step forward.  Just want to say that with Sophie also resists the catnap when she has two long naps, ie. 2hrs each, earlier in the day.  She will only take it now if the previous naps had been shorter.  She won't even sleep in the car. 

So, I don't think you're necessarily doing anything wrong as to when you put him down for the catnap.  I think your nap limit theory may be true.

[sherry lynn]

Deb,
I was looking over my log this morning and I did look at the last day were he did two really good naps and still took the catnap and I did put him to bed just slightly earlier that day. I am watching for cues. It seems a little hard since I know I am putting him to bed OT each time, but I am noticing some changes and some improvements. Which I'll write about later.

What is hungry boy formula. I looked for it yesterday at the store. I don't think we have it here. Everybody keeps telling me to put rice in his bottle, or to give him rice at the end of the day, but I know that they can have stomach problems with this, right?
I've been giving him solids three times a day and he already eats quite a bit. Sometimes I cut him off if I think it's too much. We just started solids not that long ago, but he is going great guns with them.
I've given him rice cereal, bananas, pears, avocado, watermelon, apple sauce, and sweet potatoes. 
I've been wondering if I needed to tweak this. I saw one women on the 4-6 month already went to tons of solids because her doctor told her to because of the amount of formula her LO was taking in. There is also an example in the BW book about this. I think I should have started awhile ago, oh well.
Both his morning feeds were really small, so I think I will do bottles tomorrow morning and pump just to see how much he is taking in.