Just weaned from Paci now working on day naps

[jme_malia]

Hi, I have a 13 week old.  He was five weeks premature, may have reflux (had him on Zantac for two months), recently discovered that he has a level 4 tongue tie, which explains all of our breastfeeding difficulites (I think the symptoms for the refulx were misdiagnosed for the tongue tie so I am monitoring him for reflx symptoms again without the medication)  Needless to say we have had a very unexpected rough start.  I have been pumping and feeding him with a bottle instead to make sure that he gains enough weight. ( He was 5lbs 4oz at birth and now is a good heafty 12-13lbs!)

He was addicted to his paci as when it fell out it would wake him during the day but was fine at night.  I was so worn out with all this so we went cold turkey from the paci on Monday.  It took 47 PU/PD on Monday but by Friday it just took 1 time.  I know he is a bit young for PU/PD especially being premature but it seems to work, I try to console him first with the Shhh pat method then resort to PU/PD. 

Our days have been soooooo much better without the paci, but now I discovered another problem.  He has a hard time making it to the next sleep cycle during the day only and I have to go in his room to help him.  I usually have to do PU/PD.  Any suggestions for helping him make this transition?  Other than that we are following EASY pretty well.

Also as far as the night sleeping he usually goes down between 7:30-8 and a dream feed at 10-11, but wakes at around 2:30 am and again at 4:30 or 5.  I've been recording the times of this waking and it seems pretty consistent so I'm thinking it's a habit.  However at either of the wake times he actually takes a full feed.  Some times it's the 2 sometimes its the 4. I am so sleep deprived and really want to get rid of the 2am feed, but am I expecting too much out of my little one being that he was premature?  We are on a 3 hour EASY routine he gets 5 feedings per day with one dreamfeed (and 2 more feeds with the 2 am and the 4 am wake ups)  What method should I use to get rid of the 2 am feed?  I don't want to use the paci as we just weaned him.

I just need some advice.

[brenda2]

welcome to the boards!

sounds like your little guy has been going through a lot, sorry to hear that!

with a 3 month old, it's very normal to have 1 or 2 night feeds in addition to the dreamfeed.  so if he takes a full feed each time i would bet he is hungry adn needs the feeds.  in which case weaning off them is not appropriate.  i would feed him at the 2 am definitely ( we had a 2 am feed until much older than this!).  as for the 4 am feed...i wouldn't feed him until after it's been 3 hours since his last feed as he's going 3 hours during the day, he shouldn't need a feed that close together at night.  you could do pu/pd or shh pat to get him back to sleep for this one...don't give a paci if you've just gotten rido f it...but if he wakes again before morning i would feed him.  as you said, he takes a full feed and seems hungry.

it sounds like he's really doing great at night, only 2 times up for that age is really good!

as for the naps, have you tried wake to sleep?

it's common for a young baby to still have trouble with naps.  babies work on organising their night time sleep first between 0-3 months, and their daytime sleep later, between 3-6 months.  so he's a bit young still to have it figured out.  that said maybe a routine tweak could help, do you want to post your routine so i can have a look?

[jme_malia]

Thanks for the support Brenda.  Please remind me what wake to sleep is again.  I have to reread the BW book all the time, my short term memory is really bad with this sleep deprivation.

Also here is a typical day for us:


We do EASY with about 30-45min of eating time.  I've been trying tro breastfeed for 10min and follow up with a bottle of pumped milk to give a full feed.  We then do an activity which ranges from a walk outside, to tummy time, swing, read a book, dance, or just talking and listening to music.  He pretty much can only handle a total wake time of 1hr -1hr 15min (which includes the feeds)  I've been trying to take him into his room 15-10 min before he reaches his limit to calm him before he gets sleepy, that has been helping to be able to put him down for the first sleep cycle, but no improvement for making it through the second sleep cycle.

As far as putting him to sleep for his naps I also swaddle, massage his little face because he loves it and put a little dab of lavendar scent on his swaddle to calm him.

7-7:30: starts our day, dad usually does the feed
Next succsessive feeds are every three hours 10, 1, 4, 6 or 7, and a dream feed.  Then he does his 2am wake up.  He actually has moved the 4 am feed to 5am himself for the past 2 days so I'm excited about that.

I noticed the that he is very hard to put down after the 4pm feed so I usually go for a walk and have him sleep in the stroller for a cat nap or longer if he'll do it.  Then it's our bathtime ritual with a massage, swaddle, and sleep for the night.

Any advice would be appreciated.

[brenda2]

sounds like your NWs are sorted out then, 2 times up at 2 and 5 am are normal and i would continue with feeding him both times.  he goes right back to sleep afterwards right?

can you post what you did yesterday like this:
7 feed
8:30-?? sleep
10 feed
??-?? sleep
etc
7 bedtime

sorry, i'm just having trouble seeing it the way you described - especially with short naps which always throw a wrench into the routine!

w2s is when you go in about 10 min before they usually wake up and lightly touch them so they just stir.  this brings them out of a deep sleep and allows them to resettle into another sleep cycle.  they have to be independent sleepers for this to work.

is he falling asleep independently yet or do you still have to pat/shh him for every nap.  if he still needs your help because he's still getting used to no dummy you may be stuck with short naps until he learns to fall asleep on his own.   sleeping past 45 min means they can transition between sleep cycles on his own and he won't be able to do that until he can fall asleep on his own.  KWIM?  great you got rid of the prop, it can take up to 2 weeks to be completely dummy free though, so know you're doing the right thing and keep at it!!

45 min naps can mean OT or UT, that's why i want to see your routine and sleep times.  sometimes it's a b it of trial and error to get the right A times, and you always have to adjust them following a short nap.

[ginadsp]

I too am a new to the boards and the mom's here have all helped me so much. I know how much I looked foward to reading their replies so I'm offering my two cents.

I could have written your post EXACTLY about three weeks ago! My son is now 15 weeks and we went through all the same things with the reflux, zantac, tongue tied and I'm still pumping because nursing didn't go so well. My DS even woke at exactly the same times in the night. I got rid of the paci cold turkey three maybe four weeks ago and it was a transition but we made it. He actually started finding his thumb and now uses that to put himself back to sleep at night and sometimes (if I'm lucky) during a nap. We're still working on extending our naps although this has been getting better. Just stick to the method that works best for your LO and keep at it.

[jme_malia]

Great news!  I got a 1hr and 45min nap out of the little guy yesterday without any help from me.  He also slept 8 hours straight last night!  Whoa!  I feel like a new woman today!  Of course the one day I didn't write down our day I get good results.  So here is what we did today instead:

E:  6-6:20pm eat 5 oz from bottle
A:  6:20-7:30 independent play, bath, massage
E:  7:30-7:45 topped off with 2oz
A:  7:45-8:00 wind down with dad, just talked quietly
S:  8:00pm-3:45am

E:  3:45 am: ate 5oz from bottle
S:  4:15-6:20 went to sleep independently

E:  6:30 ate 40mL from bottle
A:  6:45-8:00 hung out with dad, read a book, laid on blanket for independent play (activity play was a little longer than usual his diaper from the night soaked through his swaddled and everything so we were washing it)
S:  8:15-9:00  slept needed pat/shh initially and again 10-15 later

E:  9:30-10:00  3.2 oz from mom (Yeah!  Went to a breast feeding support group)
A:  10:00-10:45 Tummy time, looked at the other babie at support group
S:  11:00-12:00  Slept in car seat while mom ate lunch and drove back home.  He woke up once or twice but put himself back to sleep

E:  12:10-12:40  Ate from mom and 1oz from bottle
A:  12:40-1:10  Read a story, hung out with mom
S:  1:10-2:00, 2:10-3:00 needed pu/pd twice and 1 shh/pat

Hope that helps to make our routine more clear.

Also glad to know I'm not the only one going through this!  Thanks for the support!

[brenda2]

great you got a long nap!!     maybe he's getting used to sleeping without the soother!  what led up to the long nap?  how long was the previous A time?  was it the first nap in the day?

and yahoo for the 8 hour stretch last night 

he's 3 months right?  so he should be on a 3 hour EASY routine.  it looks as though you are feeding him every 3 hours but i think your A times are too long especially if he takes a short nap - then he should have a shorter A time following a short nap.  what do you think his ideal A time is?  when do you see his sleepy signs, yawns, fussiness etc? i also think 8 pm is too late for a bedtime especially if he's getting up at 6 or 6:30 am.  you should be aiming for a 12 hour day to avoid OT by bedtime

so it should be something like this (ideally)
6:30 awake and milk
8 - 9:30 sleep
9:30 milk
11 - 12:30 sleep
12:30 milk
2-3:30 sleep
3:30 milk
5 - 5:45 catnap
6:30 milk  (or you could do milk at 5:45 and top off at 6:45 if you want to cluster)
7 bedtime

10 df (can't remember if you said you were doing this or not...)

if you get a short nap then you want to put down for the next nap after maybe an hour, not longer.  yes, this may interfere with feed times, you'll just have to do the best you can to work around it.  it's ok if the EASY is out of order in this case.   

your nap from 1 -3 today was pretty good, even if you needed the shh pat in the middle, at least he resettled for you and that's some progress!

[jme_malia]

Hi Brenda,

Okay thanks for the info.  I forgot about the whole 12 hour day.  That's a great point.  I'd like to shoot for 7-7.  How do I do this in the morning when he seems to wake at 3:45am then again at 6-6:30.  The first night we got an 8 hour stretch he was famished at 3:45, last night he woke up at 3:30 but only ate about 2-3oz.  not much for him. Then when he woke at 5:45 and was still not very hungry.  I probably need to read his cues a little better or try shh/pat or PU/PD to get him back to sleep till at least 3 hours after the early morning feed.

As far as the long nap it was right after lunch noon.  His awake time was about an hour, but I did some wind down time with him so that probably helped.  Today we made progress as well, kind of.  As far as his three long naps, we got all three in today, but I've had to go in and help him make it to the next cycle.  I'll try to shorten his A time, but I feel like he can handle an hour.  When he is tired he get's quiet, he is a normally very talkative.  He also yawns, but that might be too late.

Wish me luck.

[brenda2]

yay for the long naps today!    it's ok that you helped in the middle ,as he gets used to it he'll go longer on his own.

the long wind down is a really good idea.  also watch what he's doing during his A time - make sure it's not too stimulating (too many dangly things in front of him).  you're right - the first yawn may already be too long.

what was he doing this morning at 5:45 when he wokeup?  what did you do?  did he go back to sleep or did he get up then?  if crying i would do shhh pat to get him back to sleep (you're right, he shouldn't need to eat until after 3 hours from the previous feed), pu/pd is for over 4 months old, so he's a bit young for that yet.  if he was not crying don't go in his room, stay out until he really cries and maybe he'll go back to sleep.

good luck!  sounds like you're on the right track.

[jme_malia]

Thanks so much for your advice it has been very helpful.  I can't believe what progress we have made in just two weeks.  I don't remember what he was doing at 5:45, but I will make sure in the future to try and let him figure it out more.  I tried to get him to go back to sleep at that time but it was really difficult.  After about 20 min I just decided to start his day that time.  Today he woke at 5:37, I let him go a little and went in when he first started to cry, but it wasn't an all out cry.  I was successful at getting him back to sleep.  It took 30-35 min, but he made it to 7:18 which is the start time we want to shoot for.  I thought I read in the BW solves all your problems that PU/PD can be used for 3-4months, I'll have to go reread it again.

Anyway, I have a question:
1) During the long naps during the day, do I let him finish is two sleep cycles?  What if it ends up being more than two hours of sleep time or the whole two sleep cycles plus the shh/patting or PU/PD takes longer than two hours?

[brenda2]

great start time today yay! 

pu/pd CAN be used for some LOs at 3 months, but really better after 4 mo.  what temperament is your LO?  if touchy/spirited maybe better to wait as it can be too stimulating.

a sleep cycle is 45 min...not sure what you mean by your question.  if he sleeps 45 min and then you are shh patting for a while and then he goes back to sleep...i wouldn't let him actually BE asleep for more than 2 hours.  but even 2 hours really is quite long, 1.5 hours is more typical.  and at that age you should probably wake him for a feed.  my LO had problems with 45 min naps and then she always woke up at exactly the end of a sleep cycle, so to discourage it if she was still asleep i just let her sleep about 5 min past when she would have woken up and then wake her up if i needed to (like at 1hour 35 min instead of 1 hour 30 min).  is that what you were asking?  i'm confused 

[jme_malia]

Hi Brenda,

My LO is spirited.  I think you're right about the PU/PD, although it worked for getting rid of the paci. 

Okay so no sleeping longer than two hours, I'll shoot for 1.5 hours.  It just seemed like he would do one sleep cycle then needed my help (shh/pat) to get to the next one and sometimes that sleep cycle lasts a little longer so it ends up being a total nap time of 2 hours.

I'll post more in a bit, he just woke out of a cycle.

[jme_malia]

Okay, so couple more questions:

1.  So how long will I have to help him between seep cycles?  Will he just figure it someday?  Or is there something that I'll have to work towards?

2.  As for the current wake times at night, I know I need to work on the middle of the night wake time first.  How do I begin?  Or will he hopefully just sleep through sometime soon?

3.  As for the early morning wake time, should I eventually try to stretch him with shh/pat for 15 or 30 min intervals each day till he is able to make it to 7ish?

Thanks for all your help!

[brenda2]

when he learns how to fall asleep independently without any intervention and his A time is appropriate he should figure out the transitioning too.  continue with shh pat but gradually decrease how much help you give him.  the goal is to put him down awake in his crib and leave the room and he does the rest.  when he can fall asleep independently  if he still wakes at 45 min you could try wake to sleep and see if that works to extend it.

how many times i s he waking at night?  is he hungry?  what is he doing when waking?  chatting, crying, screaming?  and what do you do?  at 13 weeks it's normal to still need 1 or 2 night feeds in addition to the dreamfeed so if he's hungry and taking a full feed i would continue feeding him.  if he's not hungry or it's been less than 3 hours since he was fed i would do shhh pat.  be consistent with it.

as for morning wake up times, many LOs do wake earlier than 7.  i agree 5 something is too early, but he may never sleep until 7...if he's not crying it's fine to leave him in the crib until he does cry or until it's time to get him up.  but remember all time not spent asleep is counted as A time so factor in what time he actually was awake when figuring out what time his first nap should be.

HTH