No rocking! But please reassure me that I'm not compleletly messing it up

[miss_squeezie]

I posted a few days ago about rocking my son to sleep again. I got some excellent advice about extending his A time and it seems to be working!
Today, he was up at 5.30am. Down for a nap again at 8am, a bit of grizzling but went back and popped the dummy in and he settled. Only had 40mins but that's not unusual. Then put him down again at 12pm and he did a textbook settle! Gurgled a bit and dropped off to sleep within 5 mins with no intervention at all! Yay!

However, I am a bit worried about the past few days as our routine has just been all over the place. I've tried for 3 naps some days with some success but I think he's going to be a two nap boy from now on. It's just when to time them. He wakes early and I think he can only take a max of 2.5hrs A time first thing so that means a nap at about 8am. But if he has a short nap, that means his next nap will be early and he'l have to much A time before bed. If he wakes early today, we're going to try for a catnap mid afternoon to see him through until bedtime but he's never been that good at settling in the afternoon so I'm not sure if it will succeed.

Sorry, I'm rambling! I think what I'm looking for is some reassurance that it will settle down again, and that in the meantime it's not going to do him any damage if his naps are at different times each day. And if I put him down for a nap and he won't settle, is it bad to give up and get him up? Or does that just teach him that if he fusses enough he'll get out of it? Sometimes, I know he's just not going to go to sleep and it feels cruel to keep trying to make him.

[brenda2]

glad he's doing better!  good for you!

it's tough when they are trying to drop that catnap but aren't quite there yet.  we had sometimes 3 naps and sometimes 2 naps for 6 weeks around 6-7mo until it was succesfully dropped.  so don't feel like you have to be doing the exact same thing every day from now on.  if he has a short nap for one of his naps i think it's absolutely fine to put him down for a third catnap - even as short as 20 min will help bridge the gap and get him to bedtime without being OT.

it is absolutely not going to damage him to have naps at different times!!  it will settle down when he gets a bit older and can more consistently take longer naps and tolerate longer A times.

if you put him down for a nap and he won't settle is it because you waited too long and he's OT?  if so i don't think you want to get him up and have him go for longer A time...you could stop for just a few minutes and try again if you think that will help.  maybe some others have more advice on that one.

[claires mum]

Great advice Brenda2

I would also add that if he's only had 2 naps and no catnap and doesn't look like he'll make it to his usual bedtime...then go for an early bedtime.  He won't wake up earlier..infact he may actually sleep longer. 

[brenda2]

yup, agree for the earlier bedtime 

[miss_squeezie]

Well, we've had some more mixed success. He did not sleep at all yesterday afternoon and was wiped out by bedtime. It was my birthday and people were here so although we tried putting him down a few times, it was difficult to force the issue.
Today, he settled well after 2 and a half hours first thing so I think I've cracked that A time (ha! famous last words, he'll prob be completely different tomorrow). So, he slept between 8 and 9am, woke up in a lovely mood so I think he had enough sleep. By 11am he was rubbing his eyes. More head and eye rubbing so at 11.30am I put him down. He was rubbing his face in my shoulder as we were cuddling before naptime and I really thought he was tired. BUT he cried for a few mins, I went back in to re-dummy and he looked wide awake. So I got him up, gave him his lunch and we went for a walk. He slept between 1.10pm and 2.10pm in the buggy. I didn't try for a catnap in the late pm, probably should have!

I was rambling a bit yesterday I think, but what I am worried about is this - I know it'll take a while to get him settled on a 2 nap schedule and there are going to be days where he's overtired and cranky and I accept that. However, how can I avoid bad habits during this time? I'm determined not to rock anymore - if he won't sleep I'll get him up rather than do that. But is getting him up just as bad a habit? I don't feel like I know when he's tired anymore and the only real way of telling is by putting him down. But, if he's UT, he won't sleep and if he's OT he might not sleep. I don't want him to get confused about our nap time routine and that if he cries enough, he'll get up again. Argh!

What can I do when he's OT? I think he safest option is to stretch him a bit as he's more likely to sleep if he is OT but again, I'm worried about putting him down and getting him up again if he doesn't settle - hence the no cat nap today, I was just too scared!

[brenda2]

i agree i would have tried the catnap...on days like that when it might be hard to put her down i would do the catnap in the sling during a walk (it always worked even if she was OT).

i think if he's OT and you know that's why he's putting up a fuss you should keep trying to put him down - try pu/pd or shh pat in the crib until he goes down, and don't stop.  that way he'll learn that when you put him in the crib it's sleepy time and he doesn't get to come out until after he's slept.

that's what i would do.  maybe someone else can offer their opinion.  i think it does depend on your LOs temperament and your style.

[claires mum]

I agree completely with Brenda!!

[miss_squeezie]

Thanks for the advice!
So far we've having a great day. Awake at 6am - this is late for him and down again at 8.30am and he did a textbook settle. Asleep in 5mins without a murmur. So, 2.5 hrs first thing is definitely the magic number. I'm glad that's sorted...for now! I'm going to aim at about 3 hours A time before the next time and see how that suits him (watching for sleepy signs too, of course)
Is there anything else I can try when he's OT? Pat/shh has not worked for us in the past. Holding his arms and shhing sometimes does but sometimes he just cries no matter what I do!

[brenda2]

   good for you!  hope it`s  a long one!

the technique for settling them changes as they age and also many people seem to adapt it a bit to suit their LOs temperament.  how old is your LO?

we have tried a lot of things and it really does change as the get older:

when DD was 5 mo and younger we had a rain noise machine so i didn't have to shh as much when i patted

at about 5.5 mo i stopped using the noise machine and kind of held her down gently because she thrashed around so much and hummed he sleepy song to her

if she was really upset (after about 5 months) i would do pu/pd: if she cries pick him up but keep horizontal and no rocking, you can talk to him though, as soon as he stops crying or switches to mantra cry or arches against you put down and continue comforting in the crib...i always comforted until asleep at the younger ages. 

now i do walk in walk out because she rarely needs help and is good at self setting and putting herself to sleep: if she cries go in and say your words (or lie him down...my LO is always sitting up now if she's upset), maybe do a few pats until she stops crying and then leave.  if she cries go back in.

so there are lots of options...i think you have to taylor it to his age, your style and what is going to work for him.  they are going to cry, it's ok it's their voice, the key is that your with them when they're crying so they don't feel abandonned.

does that help?

[Krissy18]

brenda- what do you mean keep horizontal with pick up put down?  like not over my shoulder?

i think the walk in and out might work better for me since DS already knows how to sleep on his own, does this make sense? he only cries bad for OT reasons, otherwise he just talks to himself and then sleeps. Will i confuse him now if i stop doing pick up and start just walking in and out..?

[brenda2]

krissy - if you want clarification on the techniques you could head over to the pu/pd board, the ladies over there are great at explaining it. 

it does change a bit with age.  but what i was told (for a >6 mo...maybe a bit different at the younger ages) was to pick up and keep horizontal like in the cradle position but don't rock.  bringing them upright actually wakes them up and you don't want that.  you hold until they stop crying switch to mantra cry or struggle against you and then you put down immediately.  you can talk to them while you are holding them.  my pu/pd usually turned into comforting in the crib because she thrashed around too much.

wi/wo may work better for you krissy because he is good at going to sleep by himself.  just be sure you go in immediately when he cries, and stay until he stops crying.  i usually go in and talk to her or rub her back a bit until she stops crying then say sleepy time mommy loves you and go back out.  if she starts crying again go back in and repeat.

there's also the sleep interview with tracy   https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=451.0   that's good at explaining it.

[Krissy18]

i been holding him vertically. hmm..he only cries from OT when A time has gone too long, like when im trying to feed and then get him down quickly because the last nap got messed up if ykwim..then he might be OT and scream f or a bit..but to be honest i was leaving him to scream cause he would fall asleep and then have a really long nap..but its the same when im there cause i had to do it again today at 430 and he fell asleep and still slept 1.5 hours. thats the weird thing he is totally capable of doing these long naps, he does it for the second and third all the time but never the morning one...i dont get it.

so i will try it horizontal then.

[miss_squeezie]

He only had 30mins first thing yesterday and today. Yesterday he coughed himself awake, today - who knows?! He's been in a great mood after waking both days though, so I don't think it's done him much harm.
And yesterday and today he's settled for afternoon naps like a dream! Both days he's been up at about 9am, and I've put him down at 12.30pm so about 3.5 A time which is probably too much but it seems to be working. I think it must have just been that he was UT and he can handle being OT better. And OT was what I was really scared of!

Krissy, I've also changed two other things over the past few days which may have helped. One is fitting black out blinds in his room. This was really to help keep the room cool as it's been warm here and his room gets lots of sun in the pm. But they do make the room lovely and dark for nap times, so that might help. Also, for his afternoon nap, I've been putting him down straight after lunch. Not ideal in an EASY routin I know, but possibly having a nice full tummy helps him to sleep. He is a boy that likes is food and gets grouchy when hungry so that might have contributed to his not settling well. I hope to extend the time between lunch and afternoon nap at some point, but for now, his A time is long enough!

Brenda, thanks so much for your suggestions. I haven't needed them yet, but you know what these babies are like - I'm sure it'll all change again soon!

[Krissy18]

how old isyour LO?

[miss_squeezie]

Sorry Krissy, I forgot you asked that! He was 7 months old yesterday.