need help with short napper/ routine

[karinneg]

Hi there,

My baby is 10 weeks old and breast fed, and we are having trouble with the 45min nap monster. Below is the routine we are following at the moment.  We have been using a 3hr easy but because of the short nap times it seems to be stuffing up the EASY routine and we end up having A time before E time. Often I feed a little earlier than the 3 hr mark just to get the routine back into order.
 
E 0600 ( sometimes he will fall asleep at the breast so I just let him have that nap in my arms.
This then makes our day start at 0730 and everything is pushed out an hour. Ideally I would like for it to start at 0700)
A 0630
S 0730  ( easily settled )

A 0815
E 0900
S 0945 ( hard to settle )

E 1030
A 1100
S 1200 ( when he wakes after 45 mins I try to resettle so he at least gets 1 1/2 hrs sleep, I continue doing this until the next E time)

There has not yet been any structured nap for the afternoon because he is either too tired from not getting good rests from all the other naps but I try and get him to have at least one more nap.

Bed time is a breeze. always as follows:

E 1700
A 1730 ( bath )
E 1830
S 1900 ( will sleep until 0300, eat and straight back to sleep within 30 mins )
Only minimum settling required for the bed time routine.

For the day naps I have to shh/pat in my arms to calm him down. As soon as I swaddle him he knows it is bed time and starts crying. I calm in my arms and try to put in bassinet before eyes are fully closed and continue to shh/pat for a while.

My questions:
Does my A time seem too long for a 10 week old and could this be the cause of his 45 min naps? ( I follow sleep cues and after 1st yawn I start wind down by taking toys away and try to have in bed by 3rd yawn )

Should I be letting him cry in bassinet while I shh/pat or is it better to calm in arms and put back once calmed to continue shh/pat?

When he wakes up after 45mins should I be trying to resettle for every nap? Often he wakes up crying and is obviously still tired. When I try to resettle he gives me smiles and I then think maybe he isn't tired and give in, only to have him get grizzly fairly quickly again so sometimes the A time is reduced between the first two naps of the day.

Sorry for all the questions But these short naps don't seem to satisfy his sleep needs and he gets very cranky quickly, I just want to be able to help him with his sleep so he can sleep independently.


Any help would be greatly appreciated. Cheers.

[brenda2]

hi there
sounds like you are off to a good start, swaddling, encouraging independent sleep and trying to get him onto a routine.  he's still very young!   good for you!

remember that 7 to 7 is just a sample routine.  it's not about times, it's about the routine.  you should adjust his day based on what time he gets up, and it will change as he grows - we always have a different time to start our day. 

that said short naps can really throw a wrench into the routine.  if you can't get him back to sleep when he wakes early (and yes you should try, especially if he's crying and obviously still tired) it's fine to have some A time before his next feed.  so it would be more like EASAEAS  kwim?   i would be careful about feeding him too soon - he shouldn't be hungry after only 2 hours and that may encourage snacking.

i think he does sound OT.  some 10 wk olds can't even handle 1.5 hours of A time.  especially following a short nap (you need to adjust the A time following a short nap to less than 1.5 hours) and especially if it's very stimulating - so be careful of WHAT he's doing while awake.  sometimes a long wind down can help with this.  great you are trying to follow his sleep cues but sometimes by the time they're yawning it's already too late!  my LO used to avert her eyes at this age signaling sleepiness and then start yawning 10 min later, so maybe you need to have him in bed before the yawns start.

also, your afternoon routine - i'm unclear about what you mean.  how long is he awake during this time? i think he may be way too OT by bedtime.  if he's only doing short naps then you need to put more of them in a day because they're not as restful.

it's fine to do shhh pat on your shoulder and then put him down and continue it in the bassinette.  you don't want to be doing pick up put down though which is way too stimulating for a baby this age and shouldn't be done until after 4 mo.  i think it's fine for him to cry a bit while in the crib as long as you do shhh pat and especially if it's a mantra cry.

does all that make sense?  i guess i had a lot to say 

[mom2william]

Hi Karinneg,

My DS is just behind yours in terms of age and I could be writing the same post!  We also have 45 minute naps a lot.  I am interested to see how you get on because I am confused as well.  Hope it's OK if I tag along with your post 

Brenda2,
I have been working to extend my DS 30 or 45 min. naps and can get him to go into "light" sleep most of the time where his eyes are partially closed and sometimes his eyes will roll about but I can almost never get him to go back into deep sleep.  (I extend by trying to pat his chest; I have a fan going as the shh part) This morning, he had a 30 min. nap (he was asleep at the 1.5 hour mark which I'm sure now was too long for him) and I worked almost 45 min. to try to extend it but he just wouldn't go back into deep sleep.  Should I consider that he got some sleep even if it wasn't deep sleep and time his awake time from when I gave up extending?  Just confused about that as I want to not have him OT by the next naptime.

Thanks!

[ktlamb]

Mom and Karen - I just wanted to let you know I have an 11 week old and am in the same boat.  45 min naps and not sure if I'm doing A-time right.  I'll be interested to see what you get because I could be posting the exact same.

Katie

[jme_malia]

Hi,  I'm going through the same thing with my little one he is 13 weeks well actually 14 weeks today!  Yeah!

Anyway, I found that the shh pat was not working for my little one, I don't know if it was because I was doing it wrong or what.  When he turned 3 months I tried PU/PD.  It was really difficult the first day.  I had to wear ear plugs; the first attempt to 47 times but by the end of the week we were down to 1 time.  I've noticed that I don't have to do PU/PD all the time only when he is really fussing, the other times I am now able to calm with with the shh pat. 

Also my little one would also smile at me too, I think it is the hardest thing to see them smiling at you and not want to pick thm up and play.  But for myself I knew that my little one needed more sleep and that is what is best for him not playing.  So I've been closing myy eyes when I do this whole shhh pat or Pu/PD.  I kind of peek at him by opening my eyes a little.  I can see that he is trying test my because he is looking straight at me wondering hey mom wake up.  Eventually he stops looking at me and focuses on trying to get back to sleep.

I feel like his naps are getting better after a week of what I described above.  Hope this info was helpful and not more confusing.  Oh, and about whether you should be trying to resettle after every nap, I think yes you need to be consisten.  For me when my husband is home on the weekends I notice that he is a little easier on the little guy and doesn't try as hard to get him back to sleep.  My little  one seems to be picking up on this so we're working on dad being a little more consistent like mom.

[miss_squeezie]

Just picking up on one thing that Brenda said - are you doing a wind down? This is the one thing that has always helped my son settle for a nap. He's 7 months old now and we do nappy change, story and song which takes about 15mins. I'm having nap issues at the moment, so I can't say it always works but as soon as I introduced it a few months ago it made a difference to his naps.
It's something easy (scuse the pun!) to try anyway, if you are not already doing it.

[karinneg]

Hi all, its good to know I am not the only one in this situation and will be good to hear how everyone progresses as this forum continues.
This mornings nap was 45 mins again, I got him up after that as he seemed happy ( and I hadn't read this thread yet ) he is now back down so will try to resettle when he wakes this time. on a more positive note I have been able to lay him in his bassinet after wind down and shh/pat and he has managed to go to sleep without having to be picked up for the last 3 sleeps. it feels so good when you finally get some progress!!
My wind down usually consists of a nappy change then cuddle and song - should I swaddle him for the cuddle and song?
When I try to re settle how long to I continue this for ? until his next E time?
Mom2william I too am confused about A time starting once you have finished trying to re settle or if the re settling is part of it. I find that if i include A time as part of his resettling he then gets no time to play on his mat learning etc.

Brenda2  - would feeding every 2 1/2 hours be too soon? because I find more often that not it is around this time that I am feeding. When our routine runs to plan however ( very rare ) it is every 3 hrs.
For the afternoon routine it is usually very muddled because depending on how his morning has been, dictates how his afternoon is. I have to admit that sometimes I let him sleep in my arms if he has had very little sleep in the morning to ensure he gets at least one good rest, as I know he will then sleep a good 2 hrs.

In the time i have been writing this he has woken 20mins into his 2nd nap - picked him up as he looked like he had wind....i was correct, a big burp and then spent the next hour or so trying to resettle. No luck, so have fed, straight into wind down and back in bed.
can someone please inform me on mantra cries and how to recognise them and what to do when they are having one.

[brenda2]

any time not asleep is A time this includes wind down, eating, changing etc.  sounds like your "half asleep" description is a grey area!

wind down - yes i would swaddle for the cuddle and song, it relaxes them and signals sleepy time.

if he wakes unhappy and you try to resettle back to sleep for a longer nap...the book says to do it until the next feed, or to go 40 min and then take a break.  if he never gets to sleep though this is included in A time.  i always kind of gaged it by what LO was doing...usually if i was going to be successful it would happen in 10 min...longer than that usually i was not successful but if she was looking close to going to sleep i kept trying, if she didn't then i got her up.  but that was after some trial and error - i spent a week trying to get her back down after every short nap and really watching what she did and i would try until the next feed and that's what i found out about my LO so that's what i went with and it worked for me.

i would really try to stretch him to 3 hours between feeds, unless you think waiting is going to make him wake up early from a nap for it.

mantra cries...i think they're different for each LO.  my DD has 2 mantra cries, a kind of low whiny sound that might be quite urgent sounding but doesn't really sound like a cry and then a cough cough start stop cry that never escalates and she can self sooth from

 HTH

[karinneg]

Thank you, you are very helpful. Just managed to get a 1hr 20 min nap out of him. I sat in the room the entire time and shh/patted as required. He still woke grumpy, tried for 10mins to resettle just to check if he needed more but it definately wasn't going to be happening. Got him up, still grumpy and grizzly, started crying ( sounded like hungry cry ), fed and back in bed after 1hr 10mins - alot easier to settle this time.
Yep, I think I have a snacker just to add to my probs ( my fault though ). Will work on extending these feeds so he takes fuller feeds.
My baby also has reflux and vomits alot. I guess I worry alot that he is hungry after spewing half of it up! quite a windy baby too.
will keep you all posted anyway.

[brenda2]

great!  yay for the long nap!

if you stretch his feeds it will help the snacking.  i don't have experience with the reflux, maybe someone else can help you there...but tracy does say in her book that continuing to feed a baby too often can actually cause or exacerbate reflux and tummy issues.  their tummies are only so big, you can't keep filling them up with milk and expect it to all stay down.  do you have the BWSAYP book?  there is a case study in this in that book.