Why with good EASY routine still NW/EW???

[stagemanager2]

that wake up doesn't sound like hunger... to be honest.  If she was really hungry the cries would be all out "get in here mom with my food!!!" but it sounds to me like she just needs you to help her get back to sleep?  You might try to soothe instead of offering food.  Sometimes it also helps if the person not carrying the milk (ie dh or dp) goes in instead it helps the lo understand that mom isn't here so I'm not getting fed, I'll go to sleep then.

I think every child is different in the "I need food" at night age.  But I think it's safe to say this age is fine to say no, you aren't hungry yet... ?

[momofclaire]

I agree with Heather, it doesn't sound like hunger.

Let's see a picture of the cutie?  Avatar?

You are not a bad mom. Believe me, it is so normal to have feelings like that. Actually, I don't think you ever stop having them.  Good moms question what they do and worry if they are doing the right thing. I would say that because you are here trying to get advice and caring about meeting her needs that you are an excellent mom. 
Myia

[G and G]

Thx ladies! I will have to figure out how to attach a pic of my LO.

I am not sure that it is hunger either. What is weird is that she went through a phase at 6 months too getting up for food in the middle of the night, then stopped. I hear her other times get up and she puts herself back to sleep, and she'll wake up during naps too and go back to sleep, so why she doesn't at another time is confusing to me - especially since she goes back to sleep once her belly is full.
DH usually goes in first - he has even given her a bottle instead. He usually gets me because she starts chewing on her hands so he figures she is hungry.
Maybe tonight I'll see if DH can soothe her back to sleep (meaning at least a 30 minute Pu/Pd) and if she wakes again in an hour I'll know she is hungry?

[G and G]

OK, last night again she woke at 3:15am. I went in - and I should have let my DH do it, but I have had more success with Pu/PD in the past, so I went in to see her.

This time she woke up crying, and when I picked her up she started sucking my face! She was hungry, but maybe because of AP? It is learned hunger now? Or was it also because she saw me an expected food? All of the above probably.

So tonight I am going to HAVE to let my DH go in an soothe her. My question is - if she is hungry, won't it be hard for her to settle down at all? Won't she just re-wake 45 min later for food? And at that point do you feed her? I want to make sure we have a plan and stick to it! (Of course my parents are here and it is the worst time to do some sleep training, but I am not sure I want to wait til Monday when they leave as the 3:15a wake up will become even more of a habit...?)

She also had a good napping day yesterday with a normal bedtime (7pm) and still got up at 5:45am - which is close to the 11 hours she usually does, but I thought with a 3:15am feed she would have gone longer. The last 2 mornings she went past 6am.

DD is driving me nuts!

Sorry for all the questions. you have been such a HUGE help and resource for me. I cannot thank you (both) enough.

[stagemanager2]

hugs hun...

If your dd wakes about an hour later after she has settled then it is hunger... atleast I believe it is and usually if it is hunger your dh will have a really hard time getting her to sleep. 

As for the 5:45 wake after a 3:15 feed- it may be that 11hrs is all she needs.  Or it was a fluke morning... or the two were flukes.... with these guys you really can never tell unless you are consisitent for a while and are able to start seeing patterns.

ps that pic is sooo cute!!!  your lo is adorable!

[G and G]

OK, thanks! We'll see what happens tonight. If she wakes at 3:15am I'll have DH try to soothe her first.

Can W2S be used to stop a learned hunger wake?

[G and G]

Well after 3 nights the 3:15a feeding stopped. She was probably going through a growth spurt?
She is now back to waking at 4 and 4:30 am - but not going back to sleep!
The last 2 mornings i went in there and sat in her rocking chair and talked to her when she got rowdy, but did not pick her up and did not feed her. She got calm, then upset, then calm, then upset, fell asleep for a minute or 2, and so on, until 6am. She really only got very upset when I first came in, and I gave her her blankie, kissed her, and turned on her music box and then sat on her rocking chair.
I am hoping a few more mornings of this and she'll stop all together! If not, I'll need another plan!
I tried feeding her at 6am and she was not really interested. She likes to be fed about an hour or so after she wakes.
Today is her baptism and I've been up since 4:20am! Sigh.....

[stagemanager2]

oh sweetie... hugs...

the first thing I would make sure of is if she is waking and mantra crying.  Sometimes at this time in the night los wake and some are able to get themselves back to sleep. 

DS is like this except he wakes and has started to squeel... not that he needs us, he squeels because he can....it's a new sound he has found and likes to practice as often as possible!   He gets very upset if we disterb him... so we have to wait until he is finished before we're able to go back to sleep... heh... or he finally calls for us.

[G and G]

Thanks. I do wait until she cries, not just mantra crying.
This morning it started at 3:30. I spent an HOUR AND A HALF putting her back to sleep, and she slept for 45 minutes waking up at 5:45 for the day.
She has taken 3 forty minute naps today, and I just spent another 45 minutes trying to get her to go back to sleep from her last nap as she woke up crying with NO success. She is exhausted and I know this will affect her sleep tonight, and I am crying myself even thinking about it.
I have slept a total of 7 hours in 3 days and cannot do this one more day. I know the both of you have tried very hard to help me, and I cannot thank you enough!
I have NO idea what is going on with my LO! I am afraid I might have to resort to CIO. I do not want to AT ALL, and I know it is not the BW way, but I certainly can't live this way anymore either.
I called in sick to work tonight because I am beyond exhausted, and to top it off, I don't get paid when I don't work.
My DH is up there right now trying to put her down for yet another nap and she is screaming and screaming and screaming. I don't understand why she refuses to sleep anymore.
I can't believe 9 hours of sleep at night is enough for my DD, and 2 hours of sleep during the day is enough either, but I can't force her to sleep. I can only let her cry til she does fall asleep in hopes that it works because nothing else does! This started nearly 6 weeks ago, and I more sleep deprived than when she was born!

[momofclaire]

G-
I totally understand your frustration.
It seems that, to be honest, you might not be being consistant with the plan of attack and thus you aren't getting anywhere.  I don't mean to be harsh and I understand that consistancy is SOOOO hard when you are sleep deprived but before you resort to CIO, which by the way may not work and will be very hard on you emotionally, I think we should take a really close look at what you are doing.  If she needs sleep training because of a prop then pu/pd is the way to go and you should visit that board for advice.
So, it is clear she just went through a growth spurt right?  Is there anything else going on?  Is she on solids now? What is she eating and when? Can you post her routine or what has happened the last two or so days? 

I am going to pm Bryony and have her take a look at this thread.  Maybe a fresh set of eyes will be able to see something we are missing.
Myia

[G and G]

Hi there - you are not harsh - you are very helpful! I am so frustrated and delirious from no sleep I can't think straight!
Last night she slept from 6pm to 5:15am. DH turned on her mobile and she was in her crib til about 5:50am. I am not happy about 5am wake up call, but I'll take it! It is better than 4am, and she slept a little more than 11 hours - which is far better than 9.

Since I called in sick to work last night I went to bed at 6:30pm myself. My DH was on kidduty, do I slept in a different room, no monitor and with earplugs!

She is on solids - two times a day, once at 7am, and another around 1 pm.

I am not sure she was going through a growth spurt last week, but assumed as she got up 3 times before 4am to eat and went back to sleep. It is those times where I feed her and she does not go back to bed I am pretty sure she is not hungry. So that is why I have tried to soothe her to sleep now in the middle of the night instead of feeding her. I know I keep changing things, but the early bedtime and feeding her in the wee hours was not wokring after 8 days, so I want to try and soothe her instead and give that 8 days. Maybe I am the prop as she has no others? And she can put herslef to sleep all the time, so why she can't around 4am hour is a mystery to me.
She is such an inconsistent napper I have a hard time being consistent on feeding times and on bedtime because of it. Some days she has an A time of 4 hours, and others only 90 minutes. I am trying though.

Her routine yesterday looked like this:

3:30am wake (had a 6:30pm bedtime the night before)
3:45am- went in to her as  she started crying
5:00am - finally fell back asleep
5:45am - wake - babbling and playing in crib
6:00am - feed - ate off of one breast only, not that interested
6:15am - play time
7:00am - solids
7:40am - tried BF again
8:00am - nap
8:45am - wake, play time
10:15am - Eat
11:15am - nap
12:00pm- wake
1:45pm - eat
2:00pm - nap (was rubbing eyes)
2:45pm - wake crying, PU/PD
3:20pm - gave up
4:00pm - feed
4:15pm - tried a nap again, but no way
4:50pm - nap - slept 10 min!
5:15pm - bath
5:30pm - final feed
6:00pm - asleep

A crazy day, but she slept 11 hours. She is down for her first nap this morning at 7:45am. I always hope I did not get it too late. She was happy then got very fussy. She goes from 100 - 0 in about 30 seconds so I have a hard time judging when to  put her down. I then sometimes go by the clock, but that does not always help either. At least she is usually a very happy baby. She did nap for 1 hour and 15 min -  good nap, but not long enough to push the day forward so she can get in 2 naps. She will need 3.
I am going to nap again myself now.

[Bryony]

hi there! 

Just marking my spot so I can find the thread again - will be back to post tonight when I get in from work (and get Katie into bed)!

Bryony xx

[Bryony]

Hi again

Now back from work and Katie in bed....  I've read through the thread, and first of all wanted to offer you big hugs and say that I know how you feel!  We have been having horrible NW and EW for the last 2 months and I have been sooo tempted to call in sick to work....

I thnk Myia and Heather have given you great advice and I don't have much else to add. However my feeling would be to try and get a routine sorted and get rid of the NW before you start trying to shift the day later - I know you want it to start later (I want my day to start later too!) but I think it's better to get on top of any OT, and try and get rid of the NW before you start trying to move the day later. Otherwise you may get more OT problems. Just my personal view and what I'm trying at home!!   

I also agree 100% with PPs about consistency. It's so hard when you are tired isn't it- maybe when you have your family here can you catch up on a bit of sleep yourself, and then when you are a bit less tired sit down with a family member, your DH, or a friend, and work out a plan and write it down. Then STICK TO IT!  I remember doing this when we were having 45 min nap nightmares at around your DDs age. It did help to write it down, and it meant DH and I had to agree things together.

I also have a LO who can go from UT to OT in about 2 seconds, and both UT and OT resulted in 45 min naps for us. I ended up doing A times by the clock, with the proviso that if she looked really tired I would put her down a bit early. This rarely happened though.  After a short nap (less than 1 hr or so) I found we needed an A time about 15-30 mins shorter than after a longer nap.

At her age I would expect that if she had two good naps she may be able to drop the catnap, but if not you will still need a catnap. We always had to do the catnap in the buggy around that age otherwise it didnt' happen, but I figured that provided it was only one nap a day it didn't matter.

Sorry only a few random thoughts, will continue to give it some thought but DH needs me to help cook dinner!!

Hang in there

Bryony xx

[G and G]

THANKS!

Today she took 2 naps of about 1 hour and 15 minutes. She will need a catnap - just tried and she was not having it, so I'll try again in about 20 minutes.
I have noticed a couple of things today (since I slept last night)!
That rubbing her eyes does not always mean she is tired. Her behavior has  to match the rubbing of the eyes to be signaling tiredness.
Her A times are all over the place, so that is confusing. But since she slept the whole night through last night they are longer today.
Also, for the last few days during our wind down routine (we just sit together quietly, and I hum to her, and we walk around the house turing off lights) - she wants to nurse. I am not sure if it is for comfort or because she is like - hey - fill me up so I can nap longer! She has never been one to nurse for comfort, and does not need the breast or bottle to sleep, and never has. But she also has been crying more when I leave the room as less likely to entertain herself - not all the time - she is fine right now, but sometimes she gets real fussy when I go into another room.
Maybe I'm reaching, but just some things I have noticed.
DH is on kid duty again tonight, so if she wakes maybe he'll have better luck settling her down than I do. I know it is a phase of some sort! Can't last forever?
I guess I have trouble sticking to a plan because her A times, sleep times, wakings and naps are so inconsistent. So now i'm all over the place!
I AM going to work tonight, and hopefully will get some more sleep tonight.
I think what confuses her is if he fusses for the catnap - we get her up. If it is at another nap we do Pu/PD and same thing with the middle of the night. And we do PU/PD depending on the time she gets up in the am so perhaps this is what confuses her? Like what gives? Why could i get up yesterday and not today?
Still no catnap - off for a car ride! She has been up nearly 3 hours and has 2 more to go til bedtime. Sigh......
Thanks everyone! One of these days I'll have my sanity back.

[Grace's Mom]

My dd yawned and rubbed her eyes all the time when she was younger and for her it was not a sign of nap time approaching it was just something she did. For her I had to watch the clock first (after figuring out what her needs were...knowing how much A time worked best for her, etc.) and then watched for cues.  Our lo's can be tricky sometimes.

Congrats on sleeping through, that's wonderful!!

When you try for the cat nap, have you tried going for a walk or a drive at the start, before your lo becomes OT?
That is the throw away nap and can be done anywhere.
Plus some fresh air is always a good thing for mommy and baby!

It took our DD 2 years to move her day back LOL
Some babies are just early risers.
We learnt to just except it and had her in bed early as well, which was nice because it meant we got Y time at the end of every day and got to relax.   
Just over the past few months she has started sleeping until 6:30/7am. 
I agree w/ PP about sorting out the routine/NWings, before trying to move the day around.
One thing at a time.

HUGS!
Melissa