Why with good EASY routine still NW/EW???

[G and G]

Hi all. My DH and I came up with a plan and I'd like to share it and get some feedback?

First of all, we think an early bedtime of 6 pm is best. Last night she went to bed at 7pm, and got up at 4:30am.... so if she is going to get up early, we might as well put her to bed early. She will sleep 11 hours OR LESS, not more. So if she does skip the catnap, we need to keep her up til 6pm. Putting her to bed at 5 or 5:30 might be good for her at night, but she'll then wake at 4:00 - so what would we do then? She'd be done sleeping!  I took her for a car ride yesterday, and she slept for 20 min, but she was still OT when she went to bed. So if she is going to be OT at night, it might as wll be 6pm, and not 7.
Thoughts?

We also decided that our DD is not allowed out of her room until 6am. My DH puts her to bed at night, so when she wakes in the am he is to repeat the nighttime routine - minus the feed, and a shortened version. So this morning when she woke at 4:30, she mantra cried for 10 min, slept for 15 more, then woke again at 4:55am. At 5:15 she started to get real loud, so DH went in, sat with her for a couple of minutes, put her back in her crib, gave her her blankie, turned on her music box and left the room. She was not happy about it, but she did not cry. At 5:40 she started to get rowdy again, so DH went in and turned on her mobile and left the room. At 6am he went in and got her for the day.
If she were to cry when he left the room, he was going to go back in and sit in her rocking chair and not pick her up and just soothe her with his voice til 6am.

I have a couple of questions about this -

1. I now realize DD is NOT waking due to hunger. Even after 6am she is not that interested in eating. During our wind down routine she IS interested in eating, and then I have to try and keep her AWAKE! sigh....
She IS waking because she wants a visit from mom and dad. So by going in there aren't we simply reinforcing her behavior?

2. If after my DH leaves the room and she does scream, should he just do Pu/PD til 6am? Or just verbally soothe her? What does that really teach her?

3. Her mantra cry..... I am not sure I know what this is. When she wakes she almost sounds like a dog howling at the moon! ooowww, owwww, but it is not crying. It will escalate, getting louder and louder, turn into whimpers, then a full out cry. I am assuming we should wait until she is actually crying before we go in to her?

4. I am thinking we need a plan to STOP her behavior and not reinforce it, so any suggestions would be most helpful. I am wondering if a walk in walk out kind of thing is needed, or simply a visit without any contact.

We were going to try the night time routine with DH and DD for a week first.

I'd love some thoughts, advice or feedback!

Thanks!

[momstheword]

i've been reading through this epic thread and want to say Hang in there, Gigi! You are obviously very dedicated and it sure is tough to function well on little sleep! Way to go!

I'm pretty new to all this so I'm not sure what advice I have to offer. We've been working on sleep/nap training with my DS for the past month to decrease NW's and increase nap length and it is going really really well (but a fair share of struggles to get there! and we certainly still keep on learning!) From my *limited* experience, I just want to back up what others have said about 1) consistency, 2) not rushing in too quickly if DD is able to settle herself, 3) soothing her in other ways if she isn't really hungry, and most of all: 4) you are a good mom!

My DS is 4.5 mo old so I'd really be guessing about what a 7 mo old needs in terms of soothing and how to change behaviour. But it sounds to me like less contact would be better so that you don't become a sleep prop. Personally, I find this tricky - it's like you need to strike a really fine balance between reassuring your LO that you are there for her while at the same time giving her the space to learn how to soothe herself. i found this to be a very personally specific balance for me and my DS. I feel like i just *know* what he needs to calm him *just enough* and then I can slow down my patting, quiet my voice or slowly withdraw my hand from his back. i've learned that when he is babbling away, it's better for both of us if i don't interfere until i am SURE that he can't calm himself without me. If I think there's still a chance that he can do it himself, I wait and listen.

It sounds like you are really working at listening to your DD's cries more carefully before going to her and that you are really considering how best to help her soothe herself without reinforcing behaviours that you don't want to see in the long term. It sounds like you are doing a great job. I encourage you to keep learning what works for your LO and keep going! Consistency WILL pay off!

Also, I have some related q's of my own. Not sure if I should start a new thread or just add on here?

My LO is is 4.5 mo old, and feeds every 3.5 hrs during the day, with cluster feeds in the early evening (after catnap and before bed), DF at 10:30 and wakeup for the day sometime between 6 and 7am, with NW/EW between 4 and 5am. This has been happening for the past month and its a HUGE improvement on what we had before, which was sporadic eating and napping in the day and up to 4 NW each night! Moving closer to 4hr EASY (by lengthening A times) has certainly helped. We are now at about 1:50-2:00 for A times (sometimes the first one is shorter and usually the A time before his catnap in the late afternoon is shorter - about 1:35-1:40). He takes two naps a day that are about 1:30-2:00, with stirring at 45 min, but DS can usually talk himself back to sleep or else only a few shhh's and pat's or a hand on his back does the trick. Plus, he has that late afternoon catnap of about 45min.

OK, so generally, I am over the moon about all this! We have come a long way in the past month! But what I'm wondering about is what to do about his NW at 4/5am. At first, I just went ahead and fed him and he went right back to sleep until 6/7am (I'd be happier with 7 than 6, but he goes to bed pretty early - about 6/6:30pm - so I can't complain!) But then, he was able to put himself back to sleep without being fed a few times and it got me thinking that maybe he really didn't need that early morning feed. Also, I noticed that when I did feed him at 4/5am, he wasn't very hungry when he woke for the day at 6/7am (which makes sense since he really slurped it back only an hour or two earlier!)

I tried for a week to soothe him by doing sh/pat and pu/pd at 4/5am but found that even if it wasn't too hard to get him back to sleep (sometimes harder than others, that's for sure!) he woke again repeatedly, so that i was up 1-4 times between 4 and 6 before finally deeming it a decent wakeup time and feeding him. So, I started feeding him again instead of putting him back to sleep, partly because I think he was going through a GS (BFing off both sides instead of one all day and protesting WAY more when attempted sh/pat in early am.) However, his eating during the day has slowed down now and he's back to filling up in the early AM then not being hungry at wake-up time. So, the past 2 days I've been sh/patting instead of feeding again. The thing is, he often wakes up 30-45 later and cries again, so I'm up quite a bit in these early hours again. Part of me wants to try this again for another week and see if maybe he learns to hold off till 6/7am. But part of me questions if it's just easier (and perhaps more appropriate) to feed him and go back to bed. If I do feed him, he eats eagerly, but like I said, then he's not hungry for a while.

I'd be grateful for any ideas. And if it's better for me to start a new thread, let me know. I just thought it was kind of related to this one.

Thanks!
Ellisha

[momofclaire]

It sounds like you have a good plan in place. The key is consistancy.

1.  I am certain that the reason she wakes isn't because she wants a visit from you. Now, once she is awake it is probable that she decides that she wants/needs a visit.  Remember she is little/young.  By the time she wakes she has been apart from her mom and dad for almost 11 hours.  Going in there just reminds her that you are still there.  It is what you do in the process of assuring her that will help or hurt the situation.

2.  If you are certain she isn't screamning because of hunger, pain ect...then I would do pu/pd until it is time to wake.  This will teach her that you are there if she really needs you but that you aren't going to rock/feed/prop her back to sleep.

3.  I would wait until she is actually crying and like I said earlier try to fix things so that you don't hear the first wimpers.

4.  You might want to post on the pu/pd board for specific advice about sleep training.  Try to not focus on her behavior as something you need to stop or reinforce.  There is a reason behind what she does and that reason, in my opinion, is more important than the actual behavior.

Like I said above, it sounds like you have a good plan in place. 
Myia

[Grace's Mom]

Ellisha
When that first feed of the day starts to diminish that is a sign that the 4/5am waking is more out of habit or is not as necessary and the feed needs to start to go bye bye.
If your lo wakes and is crying you can give a bottle but I'd just offer less calories....for example, you can 1. offer just less altogether or 2. Offer the same amount of ounces just less BM or formula: if your lo is use to getting 6oz at that time, offer 4 ounces of BM or formula and then 2 extra oz of water.  Over the course of a few days you start to offer less and less calories until there is just water left.
If you are exclusively BFing then you just feed for less and less time.

[G and G]

OK, thanks so very much. I will do a post on the Pu/Pd Board and see what else I can find out. My DH and I are also sticking to our plan!

[momstheword]

Thanks for the reply, Grace's mom. Mr Malcom slept through till 6am and didn't need a feed till 6:45 this AM. YAAAAAAAAY! Will see if this continues. I'm really thinking he doesn't need that early AM feed. So far it's been working just to sh/pat back to sleep, although like I said, this morning he didn't even need that. Here's hoping he's getting the idea!

[Grace's Mom]

That's great news 

[Bryony]