Nothing winds him down anymore, bedtime is a nightmare

[debandbrian]

So ds is not a good sleeper. We've accepted the 5:30/6 am wakeups and the sleep deprivation that plagues us all. But bedtime has become atrocious. We've been battling this on and off for a while, mostly since the transition to big boy bed in March but for a while before that too. Nothing seems to settle our 3 yr old. We used to do stories in the chair, put him in his crib and (after a LOT of work sleep training) he'd do it on his own. After we moved to the bed, with putting the matching end table in and rearranging so the dresser would fit too, there's no room for the chair. Dh does stories on the floor, I find it really uncomfortable so I lie in the bed, but it just doesn't seem the stories settle him down anymore. Once we get the lights out, there's a hysterical fit begging us to stay. It's heartbreaking. And there's all kinds of stalling, I'm thirsty, I have to pee... We've tried tv to wind down, no tv to wind down, snacks, no snacks. Bath seems to give him a second wind. I have tried and tried an earlier bedtime but it doesn't seem to matter whether you start at 6:45, 7, 7:30 or 8...more times than not, he's up until 8:30 or even 9 and the whole process puts the entire household in a terrible mood. Tonight he didn't want the lights out, when dh turned them out he kicked dh (the behaviour has been on and off not good lately too, which is not our son's personality). We are pulling our hair out.
Are there any suggestions on how to get this spirited and very stubborn little man to calm down at night, and to be able to put himself to sleep again?
Oh, we're working parents, all 3 of us get home together at 4:30ish and we try to have dinner on the table between 5 & 5:30. We have NO control whatsoever over his day, though it's pretty standard with a nap from 12:30 - 2:30, though we're told he's often the last to fall asleep and occasionally doesn't sleep at all.
Now it's 8:20 I think dh has walked away. Ds is at the gate by his door singing......

  HELP!!
Deb

[cookie cookie]

Your situation sounds just like mine when my DD takes a nap at daycare! On the days that she is home and she has no nap I tuck her in at 7 to 7:30pm without a peep. On the days she takes a nap it is a nightmare! I just posted my situation before I read your post and I was holding back the tears as I typed because like you said... it's makes the whole household in a terrible mood. I'm thinking about asking the daycare to not let her nap there. I can't think of any other way to resolve this unless some good advice comes from my post. I wouldn't mind spending the extra time playing with her at night except for the fact that like you and your DH we are both working parents and my time to do chores and clean up is after the children are asleep at 7:30pm. When I'm dealing with the children until 9:30pm the house turns into chaos! I'll be watching your post to see what good advice you receive. Hugs to you all and I hope it gets easier soon. We know what you are going through!

[KathyM]

I was going to say the same thing. My ds dropped his nap right around the age of your son. After that happened, bedtime was/is a breeze. Even now if my ds gets a nap in the car during the day, it sets bedtime back by at least an hour.
HTH

[aidliz]

Have you or dh tried sitting with him for a while after you have turned out the lights.  You could tell him you will sit with him for a while, when he gets settled you could leave quietly. 

I am also going through the no nap transition with dd, it isnt easy.  If she naps she is up forever, if she doesnt nap she is a nitemare at about 5:00, and wants to nap then.  I cant wait for it to be over.

[skatty]

Can you let him have a little wind down time by himself after stories with a small light an some books? I was probably older but I used to fall asleep looking at pics in books everynight when I was little.

[nike]

I was also going to suggest eliminating the nap, but if he is absolutely shattered by bedtime then you could start by just cutting it back a bit, say halve it to an hour?

IMO, while a 2 hour nap sounds fabulous (for us mums!) it's probably quite long for a 3 yr old.  My DS turned 3 last week and for a while there I thought he was dropping his nap completely.  I persevered with quiet time and somehow he started napping again, but only for an hour.  He still goes to bed at about 7.30.  Occasionally he will stall going to bed and then I think "uh oh, the nap is starting to interfere with bedtime" but touch wood we just remain firm, that "this is the very last story", etc.  I am holding on to that nap for dear life, since DS2 is now also on one nap a day, at the same time!

Does your DS have lots of physical activity in the afternoon after his nap??

It sounds like your DS has gone into a bigboy bed a little later than a lot of kids.  Maybe he's just finding the transition a bit difficult.  With such a huge change there is going to be an adjustment of routine.  You end up tweaking things here or there and suddenly, boom, you will find a new routine has developed!  You could even try doing stories somewhere else, like in the lounge (as we do) with the lights dimmed and TV off, then toilet, and into his room for a few cuddles.

If you cut the nap short or eliminate it completely and are still having trouble getting him down, I'd seriously consider doing WI/WO.  He needs to know bedtime is lights out and sleepytime.  GL!

[kirsty_167]

HI

My son is 3 on Aug 2nd. We have had sleep issues in one form or other his whole life.We no sooner fix one,another one starts Currently we are back in bedtime meltdowns and/or totally stalling going to sleep. It is a nightmare and i know what you are feeling. Im right there with you.

I work fulltime( a teacher) and on top of that my partner has had an op this week so im doing it all alone at the moment......im shattered!

Im simply sticking to my guns.Sticking to what i always do.Teeth ,stories,bed. If he chooses not to go to sleep then so be it. (i do go in once if it is getting ridiculously late and tell him to go to sleeep NOW (like 2 nites ago it was 9.30pm and he was still singing !!!!)

I think they are at the stage of needing/not needing naps. Jakob only had 10 min in the car 2day so tonight had MAJOR meltdown but was asleep at 7.30pm.During the week he has an hour nap at daycare,then at night gets totally overexcited around the time he needs to wind down for bed (no stimulation needed whats so ever he just is one very very active boy) and can take forever to go to sleep at night.

Stuck between a rock and a hard place and it really plays with the emotions. I had to walk out and take some air tonight when jakob was melting down. Im so over the screaming and bedtime preformances.I took a 2 min breather then went back and dealt with it again.

I know i have no advice really.I guess all im saying is stick to what worked before (routine wise) One thing that worked for awhile with Jakob was to lay with him after lights went out and talked to him about his day.This was when he had started having nightmares and decided bedtime was bad. It worked a treat,except now he demands it for longer and longer...once i get him going to bed easier i will deal with that issue then lol!! See told you it is always something with my son!!

If all else fails...earplugs are GREAT!

Take care
Kirsty

[debandbrian]

Thank you so much for the suggestions. I really think cutting out the nap most days would eliminate the problem, but with him in daycare we don't have that power. He's in the toddler room, and in June he finishes for the summer (we're teachers too) and when he returns in Sept he'll be in the preschool room. They are still required by law to have a 2 hour naptime, but I think in a room of 3/4 year olds instead of 18 mo - 3 years where he is now, fewer kids will be napping so I think the teachers will be more accepting of it. I think his teachers have trained him that if he doesn't nap it will be really really boring and they'll be annoyed with him, and I also think they sit beside him and coax him to sleep. I don't blame them, with a room full of 15 toddlers I would want them all to nap too lol! Of course today he's gone down for a nap no problem, because he only slept 9pm - 6am last night and he was wrecked. On the other hand though, he is so sleep deprived all the time, and the 'norm' amount of sleep his age is around 12 hrs...on a good night he sleeps 8pm - 6am (10 hrs) so I figure a 2 hour nap gets him up to the right amount. There have been many a weekend day where he would have napped 3+ hours (which MIL let him do last weekend, grrr...) but since these shenanigans started we started waking him at 2 hours no matter what.

And NO, they don't have enough activity in the afternoon in his daycare!!! After nap there's a snack, then storytime, then they start to play around 3:15 but since we pick him up early he doesn't go outside with the rest of the crew. We try our hardest to run him around when we get home, but with getting dinner on and Canadian weather, well, we do the best we can...

Thank you for the support - I was hoping there would be some miracle answer but I think we're just going to have to ride it out until June when we can drop the nap unless he really needs it. Maybe we'll try stories on the living room couch or our bed? The problem is we can never choose one plan and stick with it, but I'll try to see if we can come to a consensus.

Oh, the big boy bed - we just really needed to be able to do it during some time when we and he were off school for a bit, just in case it didn't go well and he was exhausted, our day to day routine of being out the door at 7:30 am would have probably been too much for him. Christmas we were travelling, so spring break it was. But everything I read from the 'experts' said not to rush it - later (closer to 3) was better than earlier, if you didn't need the crib.  I think I was reluctant too bc we've been struggling with ttc and I did not want IL's bugging me about being pg if we moved him on the early side. At least in March we could just say he's turning 3, it's time...Unfortunately it was also when we changed the clocks, I don't think he ever really truly adjusted to the change.

Will report back in a couple of days, to let you know if any tweaking made any difference. It may just turn out that for the next month we have to deal with a 9pm bedtime sometimes.
:O Deb

[nike]

Just a thought, Deb, but over here in Australia the kids go up to the kindy room, from pre-kindy, at age 3 and when reasonably well toilet trained.  DS hasn't moved up from pre-kindy yet and is still having a day nap but I know some kids in his room who have outgrown it - and during rest/nap time they take the non sleepers into the kindy room so they don't disturb the others who nap.  Maybe you could ask if they can do that with your DS too?

Dancing is always a great physical activity that can be done inside and will expend a bit of energy  

Well done getting to 3 before having to make the transition from cot to bed!  I hope you don't think I was implying there was anything wrong with that, I only meant you're lucky you got that far without him climbing out and generally faffing around

I'd choose a routine that is easy to stick with and be consistent and strong in enforcing it.  If it helps, this is our routine for both boys, 3 and 17 months:

5.15: dinner (we all eat together)
The boys have a play while DH and I clean up the kitchen, run the bath, get pj's ready, etc. 
6.00: bath
6.15: I get DS2 out of bath, give him bottle and put him to bed
6.30: DH gets DS1 out of bath, puts pj's on & starts reading stories in the lounge.  I join them after putting DS2 to bed.  DS has drink of milk during stories.  We then feed his fish, say goodnight to Nemo, and he chooses a couple of soft toys (his "friends") to take to bed
7.15:  Brushing of teeth, saying goodnight, cuddles & kisses with Mum.  Dad takes DS to the toilet, then tucks him into bed (with nightlight on), kisses & cuddles, nightlight off.  Asleep by 7.30 p.m.

Will check back soon and see how you're doing

[debandbrian]

Oh thanks, but with legal ratios his school isn't going to move him. We just have to ride it out with them until June 26 which is his last day before the summer. This summer we'll be outside more and we'll try a nap/quiet time every day but if he isn't asleep on his own after an hour we'll let him get up. My suspicion is that he'll nap some days but not all...

So as for bedtime, dh and I have come to the conclusion that he's really just not tired enough at 8pm so he never truly adjusted to springing the clocks forward... dh was on for bedtime last night, started at 7:15 and ds was asleep by 8:20, slept until 6:45 this am so almost 10 1/2 hrs sleep which was good. He stayed with him through the wiggling and talking and left when he was drowsy. I always try to negotiate that he needs to be calm for me to stay but we've finally accepted that that's where the conflict starts. So I guess it's better that he settle on his own more quickly with us in the room ignoring it, than taking forever with us having to go in and out, getting him more riled up then he's up until 9.

Not a great plan, I know, but until the nap drops I think we're going to just have to turn a bit of a blind eye to the silliness.  But two things - how can I push this 8:20ish up some? It's too late for me to get settled and get a good sleep, and we're either too rushed in the morning or having to wake him up and I really prefer the 6 am wakeup over either of those.  And 2) does anybody else's bedtime routine take an hour? I think I'm going to post that second one as a separate topic...

Yawn,
Deb

[nike]

Hi Deb.  Just another thought.  Since you mentioned the "rushing around" yourself, and that DS is hard to wind-down at the end of the day, do you think this might be the reason he's having trouble settling for bed?  I'm a SAHM so I have the opportunity to get things (like dinner) organised during the day, so it's not so chaotic towards the end of the day, esp since DS2 suffers from classic witching hour syndrome But I realise you're a working mum and that must make it really difficult.  Of course there's all the things you can do to ease the stress in the afternoons (like getting up earlier or prepping dinner the night before, after the kids go to bed) but who the hell has the energy for that!   Just reading your last post, maybe he is picking up on some stressful vibes (understandably - again, I take my hat off to working mums ) and it's contributing to him being a bit difficult to settle?  But I could also be totally off the mark.

Sounds like you are having some success with a later bedtime, though.  Is this after a nap during the day or without?  If DS is waking early, I would think an 8.30 bedtime is a little late - BUT they are all different, aren't they?  Maybe it's a question of hitting upon a consistent bedtime and keeping it at that, and hopefully his little body will adjust.  Again I would stay firm with your routine.  They all try to stall at one stage or another and they can be quite manipulative, but remember that Mum and Dad are boss

In relation to bedtime routine, do you mean an hour once you put him to bed or after dinner?  Ours is just over an hour starting from bath to putting him to bed.  Can you post your "typical" night routine?

There are a couple of other things you can use to help calm him down, like for instance rub a little Vicks baby balm on his chest (do you have that in Canada?)  You can also put a dab of lavender essential oil on his pillow.  You can also buy something in Australia called Brauer's Calm, which is a homeopathic remedy which is supposed to soothe and calm.  I'm sure they have something similar over there.  Does your DS have a comfort object/toy?  You could incorporate that into his routine, eg say "Teddy looks very sleepy, it's his bedtime now" - you could do a whole role-play thing using Teddy as an example.  I hope I've given you a couple of ideas at least!

[deb]

You've gotten some good advice here, so not much to add. I would check with the daycare about naps, though; maybe they could agree to limit the amount of time he spends napping?

Here in the States they're required by law to have the *opportunity* to nap thru age three, but not required to actually SLEEP. (Good job, too, as neither of mine napped at 3 unless they were sick or in the car. ) YOU are paying THEM, and it doesn't seem unreasonable that they should accomodate you to some degree.

The thought about evenings being rushed and/or chaotic might bear some looking into as well. I know here it's harder to get two Spirited girls to bed if they've been wrestling with Daddy....

Oh, and when all else fails, here we use melatonin. It's a natural hormone the body makes that tells it to go to sleep (like me ATM, believe it or not LOL) and in the States I find mine at Whole Foods. We get a peppermint-flavored sublingual that the girls just chew; they each get maybe a 1/4 tablet (adult dose of this brand is "not more than 2 tablets"). Half an hour later, I'm tucking in seriously sleepy and VERY calm girls. I may even try making the bits of it smaller to see how little will put them out. We don't use it every night, and I don't know if it's available in Canada - apparently it's one thing the FDA has NOT banned that much of the rest of the world has.

Keep us posted?

[nike]

I stumbled upon this, which might be helpful:

What if my child has problems settling in at night or resists going to sleep?
There are different reasons your child may not want to go to bed at night.  Find out why your child is a night owl, and read about some strategies to try.

Your child may have issues with autonomy.  In other words, they may want to have more control over their body and their environment.  This usually starts to happen after about nine months of age, and is what two-year-olds are famous for!  Give your child some limited choice and “control” over the type of bedtime activities and the order of the bedtime routine.   If your child has more control over these activities, they may feel less need to exercise control over when they fall asleep.

If your older child resists going to sleep at night, remember this:  It is your responsibility to put your child to bed, but it is your child’s responsibility to go to sleep.  Put your child to bed at a reasonable time after a reasonable bedtime routine.  Have clear rules (stay in bed, no eating, etc.).  Then, if your child doesn’t fall asleep, it may be that they don’t need so much sleep.  If they stay awake late, and then want to sleep late in the morning, wake them up 10 minutes to a half hour earlier every morning until they are falling asleep at the time you want at night. 

Basically, you should discuss the bedtime routine during the day so that the child knows what to expect at night.   Then stick with it each night. If kids know what to expect, then they'll usually do okay.

And this:

Make bedtime a special time.  It should be a time for you to interact with your child in a way that is secure and loving, yet firm. At bedtime, spend some special time with your child. Be firm and go through a certain bedtime routine that your child is used to. At the end of that routine the lights go off and it is time to fall asleep.
Put some thought into finding your child’s ideal bedtime.  In the evening, look for the time when your child really is starting to slow down and getting physically tired. That's the time that they should be going to sleep, so get their bedtime routine done and get them into bed before that time. If you wait beyond that time, then your child tends to get a second wind.  At that point they will become more difficult to handle, and will have a harder time falling asleep. 
Keep to a regular daily routine—the same waking time, meal times, nap time and play times will help your baby to feel secure and comfortable, and help with a smooth bedtime.  Babies and children like to know what to expect.
Use a simple, regular bedtime routine.  It should not last too long and should take place primarily in the room where the child will sleep.  It may include a few simple, quiet activities, such as a light snack, bath, cuddling, saying goodnight, and a story or lullaby. The kinds of activities in the routine will depend on the child’s age.
Make sure the sleep routines you use can be used anywhere, so you can help your baby get to sleep wherever you may be. 
Some babies are soothed by the sound of a vaporizer or fan running.  This "white noise" not only blocks out the distraction of other sounds, it also simulates the sounds babies hear in the womb. Small, portable white noise machines with a variety of different sounds are now available.
Make sure your kids have interesting and varied activities during the day, including physical activity and fresh air.
Use light to your advantage.  Keep lights dim in the evening as bedtime approaches.  In the morning, get your child into bright light, and, if possible, take them outside.  Light helps signal the brain into the right sleep-wake cycle.

Both quotes are from this site:  http://www.med.umich.edu/1libr/yourchild/sleep.htm#resist

I believe the last bit is related to melatonin, so you can also get it the natural way, from sunlight 

[debandbrian]

Some really great suggestions, thank you.
Stacy you are right on the mark with his daycare - in Canada I think it's any child in daycare, regardless of age, for 6 hours or more has to have a 2 hour naptime. Our handbook says that if the child is still not asleep after an hour, he will be given an opportunity to play quietly, but I think this really applies to the 3/4 and 4/5 year old rooms, not the toddler room. Really, I don't blame them - 15 kids and only one who won't sleep? And not the calmest of kids either. They need a break, I get it, and with a month left it's not worth the argument.

I wouldn't say our evening is chaotic or rushed, it's just time-specific. There's always a lot of suggestion of having dinner at say 4:45 to make everything earlier and that's just not possible. DH and I alternate cooking so ds gets equal amounts of our attention and I don't think he feels a great amount of stress in the house. Our typical afternoon is like this -

3:45ish - pick up at daycare, then pick dad up at work
4:15 - 4:30ish - arrive home
4:30 - start on dinner, depending on what we are having (we have a set menu on the fridge, to make things go smoothly and to help me watch my calories )
5:15 - eat dinner together
6:00 - bath
6:30 - play, hang out, sometimes watch a little tv, have a snack
7:00 - start the bedtime routine - get a sippy cup of water, use toilet, choose books (there's that autonomy, but sometimes choosing 3 books takes him 5-10 mins!), read the books, turn out the lights, tell a story in the dark (he's in this phase where he wants a story about him and all of his friends driving construction vehicles and building something, lol), then this is the time where we tell him it's sleepytime, he needs his rest to have a good day, lie still, close his eyes, we love him, etc etc. This is also the time where he tells us he needs the toilet again, and if we try to reason that he's just been a half hour earlier, it sends him to an uproar, so we just started going as soon as he asks and making it as boring as possible), then it's back to his room and getting comfortable and settled all over again. Usually needs another drink. So.....serious stalling tactics!!!

Once he's finally in bed for good tends to wiggle around and whisper (loudly) to himself which I'm fine with, if that's what he has to do to settle, but he wants us in the room with him. Leaving while he's at this point has sent him into hysterics for the past 3-4 months.  So if you stay, he generally can calm himself down and fall asleep within 20 mins - I go by the door, ie, as far away from his bed as possible, and I don't have to say or do anything. And I make a point to leave while he's still awake, but just barely. THIS is the part I'd like to fix, but I just don't know how!!! All our hard work out the window!!! But it seems the stories, the lights low/off doesn't do anything to settle him anymore, hence the title of this post.  I started only reading one book sometimes since it doesn't calm him anyway, sometimes he's ok with it and sometimes there's a protest. 

I will say, though, if you start later, like 7:30/7:40, the settling part takes a little less time and he's usually asleep by 8:20/8:30. This is the other part I want to fix... because if I leave his room at 8:30, do those 2 or 3 things that have to be done before the next day (open the bills, check the email, feed the dogs...) and get lunch ready for the next day (FORGET about preparing dinner in advance!!!), brush teeth, wash face, it's now 9:00 and I'm exhausted. I myself need to read or watch tv to get wound down so we're asleep approx 9:30 or 10 and if all goes well all parties sleep straight through until 6, but more likely, one of the three of us is up before then. Sometimes dh starts to toss and turn at 4 am, sometimes it's me...last night I woke at 12:45. 3:15 and 5:00 (new thread = how to solve mom's night wakings, lol!!!)

So we're stuck in a couple of places - getting him more calm more quickly, and getting the actual sleep time earlier.  I think I may try the lavender but I don't think I can get the melatonin here and I'm on the fence about using a substance even if it is natural (having had to wean myself off valerian root several times!!) and I don't think dh would go for it at all.

I do appreciate folks following this saga and offering the advice but until we drop the nap I think we're just going to have to make do until the summer.  If we still have the problem after he's moved to the preschool room then we'll have to be more insistent on no nap. Those teachers I think will be much more understanding.
Thank you again - will continue to keep you posted as it progresses.
Deb

[debandbrian]

Agreed Stacy, one day (night) at a time until the school year ends...it's just sooooooooo hard, dh has been doing bedtime since 7:15, it's now 8:45 and we're all still awake. He was quiet for about 5 mins, then was out of his bed at the doorway (we put a gate up when all this crazyness started). I put him back in, came out again, said he had to pee. No actual pee happened. I put him back again, then he turned on his bedside lamp, lol. Now dh is back in with him. He's pretty fixated on "I'll be by myself" if we don't stay.
Sigh....so tired.......
Deb