Nothing winds him down anymore, bedtime is a nightmare

[nike]

If he's napping 2 hours in the day, then obviously he needs it.  He's more than likely catching up from the late bedtime the night before and the early wake-up (you said 6-ish, if I remember correctly?)  Of course peer group pressure is a wonderful thing - monkey see, monkey do, as they say!  I'd almost bet if you could cut that nap down then bedtime would be easier, but I also don't agree completely with the fact he's not tired at bedtime, hence the shenanigans.  My bet is he's still testing the waters of the independence of sleeping in a big bed and being able to manipulate Mum and Dad   Of course I don't know your son, but we've been through periods of this.  We never caved though.  If our DS says he wants to pee, and he does, then obviously he doesn't need to do another one 5 minutes later!  Again I'd stay firm with your bedtime routine (which looks great, by the way) and keep reinforcing that it's sleepy-time.  I'm sure if I had the chance I (sans 2 toddlers) I'd be able to have a 2 hour nap and still be ready for bed at 8.45!  I really think you need to give him the opportunity of an early night still.  If he naps from 12 to 2, there's plenty of time left in the day to burn off some serious energy!  GL!

[debandbrian]

Oh thanks gals. The nap is 12:30 - 2:30, his log at the end of the day usually says the he fell asleep at 12:40 or 12:50.  It's hard to figure out if he 'needs' it or is just napping because they are making him, lol! I would be more than happy to let him stay up until 8:30 or 9, if a) I weren't so exhausted myself, and b) we didn't have to get out the door so quickly. Morning is actually our hectic time...if dh and I are driving together, which we do most days, we must be out the door at 7:30 to get everyone to school by the bell. If ds sleeps too long or dh has something he has to be there early for, we drive two cars (but with gas at 1.30 a litre, that's 5.20 a gallon for you Americans, we really try to carpool as much as we can) - in that case I can leave at about 7:50 and just make it in under the wire. Not much wiggle room... So, again, twiddling the thumbs until end of the school year.  We just don't understand how we went from 8pm - 6am plus a 2 hr nap (3-4 hours on the weekend) with no problems to this.....could the big boy bed and the time change really have done that? It's been over 2 months since we transitioned, but we've never recovered.
I really do appreciate all the advice. I don't think we are going to see much change until we drop the nap, so I think I just have to tolerate the late nights for a bit longer. MIL is getting him one night next week, something to look forward to lol!!
Deb

[debandbrian]

Wellllllll.....don't know about the cut out the nap theory.
No nap yesterday, which we were ok with. Would not settle last night, finally asleep at 8 pm and up again at 6:15.
He's been exhausted since he woke and I thought naptime would be a breeze, started a bit early (11:45ish?) and took 90 mins to get him to go to sleep with dh eventually coming to relieve me bc I was losing it.
What now??
Deb

[deb]

OK, two other thoughts come to mind:

DH has been getting home late, but our municipal pool is open till 9PM. Over the past few summers we've settled into the summer routine of having a light supper when DH gets home (or even before he does), then going to the pool at like 5 or 5:30 till 7 or even 8PM, depending on the kids and the weather. Swimming, or pretty much any good exercise that ends before 6:30PM (walk to the park a couple blocks away, play hard, suck down water bottle, trudge home), wears them out really well for bedtime. It's a close enough drive that we can pack up the girls by 7:30 for an 8 or 8:15 bedtime. We also sometimes fill up the toddler pool and let the girls play in there right in the backyard.

Another thing both girls have is bedtime CD's. DH basically goes into iTunes and puts together a set of quieter songs that we can play at bedtime. The girls can fall asleep to those; Josie's used them since she was like 2. I used to piece together lullabyes from our Music Together CD's but J's taste has matured somewhat since then. I used to use them for naptime too when Josie took one (Nat wasn't into them yet at that age), and for her Quiet Time. (They're also useful for long car trips.

[debandbrian]

Thanks so much Deb and Stacy....thing is, we didn't opt not to nap yesterday...did the whole bedtime routine but he just wasn't tired or at least didn't appear to be. Started the whole routine at the same time - 12:00 ish...after an hour in his room with him and then about 45 mins playing in his room by himself having 'quiet' (lol) time it was almost 2pm so of course we weren't going to press the nap that late in the day. Last night's bedtime routine was started at about 6:45 (so 12.5 hrs after he woke) but again he just would not settle down. Same thing today with the nap.  So I can't figure out if he's over tired or not tired enough!!!!!

Tiring him out in summer won't be an issue - other than meals and sleep and rain, we're outside all day.
DH and I were wracking our brains after I posted this today - this is now my 3rd or 4th round of desperate posts in the past  couple of months - and we arrived at that the nap at school is too long/too late or he doesn't need it at all but they more or less make him. There is really no point making ourselves crazy as we have only about 17 school days left. It's just what to make of weekends when he is clearly exhausted, bags under the eyes, cranky but just won't settle. I know in my heart he forces himself to keep moving and talking to stay awake because he really just doesn't want to sleep and miss the world around him. I guess I can't blame him...

So after the ridiculous nap shenanigans today he ended up falling asleep at about 1pm and slept until 3:40...tired, to say the least. It's now 8 and dh has been at bedtime for about a half an hour, though they came out for a pee about 10 mins ago. We'll see what the night brings.

So do appreciate the ideas and support...I think there should be a support group for parents of lo's who are just non-sleepers!!! I'd be the president of that group!!!
Deb

[debandbrian]

Just to follow up, last night he fell asleep just before 9 and slept until 7...9pm to 7am would be perfect, if it were just 8pm to 6am lol!!!!!

I've decided not to stress myself out over it any more, 16 school days left now, thanks so much everyone!
Deb