night time antics - out of bed constantly

[mumplum]

Hi,

My 3 year old(highly spirited) and 5 year old(never been able to pinoint his temperament) are in the same room. At night my husband and I have ended up lying down with them until they are asleep, and it is the only way I can get my 3yo to nap during the day. If we don't stay until they are asleep, we end up with numerous visits to the toilet/loungeroom/"Emily is keeping me awake/is in my bed"/playing with toys or jewellery etc. We also have another dd, 18weeks old, who we are trying to teach independant sleep to.

Any ideas to encourage my two to go to sleep on their own without us lying with them? After 10 mins or so, our 5yo is ok to be left to go to sleep alone, but our 3yo ends up playing etc

Thanks

[Layla]

Hi & welcome tp the BW !

Perhaps the 3yo doesn't need the nap anymore or maybe you could try shortening it and that way he/she will fall asleep sooner?!?

What time is the nap and what time is bedtime? Could you post the routine please...

[mumplum]

Hi and thanks for your quick reply,

Emily (my 3yo) is a really high energy kid, but then burns out quickly too. A few weeks ago we tried not giving her a nap, but would often fall asleep on the sofa at about 4pm, and would always be grumpy, teary, clumsy, and often end the evening in a total meltdown. Yesterday she had no nap (some days she seems ok to last the distance) but was hysterical by bedtime (she was brought home by grandparents, who don't seem to have a 'calm' button,  though at 7pm and not able to get to sleep until 7.45).

Here is our routine

6.30- 7am  awake
7am-7.30   breakfast
                dressed, teeth etc
                play
8.30         leave to drop 5yo to school, Emily to pre-kindy 2 days/week
10ish        morning tea
11.30/12   lunch
12/1         nap (as I need to lie with her this has depended on getting my 4mo baby to sleep then lying with Emily. I aim for earlier, but sometimes can be almost 2pm) Nap 1.5-2.5 hrs, usually wakes after 1.5hrs
3             collect 5yo from school
3.30         afternoon tea/play
5/5.30pm  dinner
5.30/6      bath, teeth, pj's
6.30         stories
7pm         bed

The evening seems to escalate in wild activity by them both, often resisting putting on pj's, running around the house, climbing on thw sofa etc. At bath time we often leave them to play in the bath, popping in and out as we clean up dinner etc. Do you think maybe this is allowing things to get too wild. Maybe we need to sit with them and have a shorter bathtime?
Story time is sometimes in the bedroom, and sometimes in the loungeroom, and after stories there is often some bed hopping until we get tough and tell them to lie still.

Ondays when Emily does not nap, we often speed up the evening, ensuring an earlier dinner and get her into bed by 6ish. She is usually asleep within 5 mins then,

I look forward to your help

[Layla]

So with the nap... its ok that she still wants a nap but if its as late as 1.30pm then personally I wouldn't let her still sleep as long as 1.5hrs (or more) or if you do, then she might not want to sleep at 7pm. I would let her nap till 2pm (or say 2.30 the latest) and then do bedtime around 8pm.

Also rather than lying with her in her bed, I would either get a mattress by her bed and lay down on the floor, so that way you can look at moving the mattress towards the door every couple of days and teach her how to fall asleep without you that way ... or.. sit on a chair by her bed and slowly move it towards the door every couple of days.

What do you think?

[mumplum]

Thanks,

I certainly think the earlier nap will help. The last couple of weeks I have tried for about 12 noon and she has fallen asleep quickly and not been as hard to get down at night. I will keep trying to do that.

I like the idea of sitting on a chair. I do anticipate that she will wriggle and play and sit up etc... she finds it very hard to switch off and calm down. If she does that what should we do? Just keep telling her to lie down?

Cheers,

[franchick]

Hi Mumplum!

My Lo (who is 3 on Wednesday!!) also has various bed time antics, but the time it takes to get ready for bed and go to sleep can vary significantly. We have pretty much cut out her nap and have noticed a big difference in her willing-ness to get ready for bed and go to sleep easily. Also, we had got to the stage where she pretty much would go to sleep on her own without us lying in the room, but we have had a little set back in recent weeks due to the death of my dad. At the moment, Katie says 'please will you snuggle with me and look after me mummy?' Very hard to resist, especially as she does not play up at all and goes to sleep within 5 - 10 mins if I do this.

Anyway, what I have found has helped active antics in the evenings is as follows:

1. Bathtime - I often pop in and out, but find it is much more valuable for Katie if I spend quality time chatting with her about her day - helps her process it and also gives me an opportunity to remind her what is happening next (pjs, story, bed).

2. Being consistent with what you say and when - e.g. 'please go back to bed', 'it is time to lie down and lie still now', 'it is not time to talk and move around, it is time to rest your body and close your eyes', (if there is a toilet break) 'ok, quick, back to bed now and lie down and relax'. Only if Katie is really not listening or is too active to lie still do I 'resort' to 'mummy is starting to get annoyed now. Please lie in bed, lie still, no talking. If you don't try and go to sleep soon, mummy *will* get annoyed' (and give a kiss and a cuddle). I try and say all of these things really, really calmly. I have never had to resort (OK, maybe once or twice) to actually 'getting annoyed' and, if I have, I always apologise for being grumpy and just explain that I am tired as well. If Katie needs 'physical' help, I will smooth down her sheets, cuddle her up and put her in bed and then 'tuck her in'.

3. For 'moving out' of the room, I have found that sitting on the floor rather than lying on a mattress or sitting ona  chair works really well. I can sit right next to Katie's bed, with my head turned away (so she 'gets' that I am not up for a chat), and hold her hand if she needs it. Sometimes when I have done this she has asked that I get into bed with her. I just say that it is more comfy for mummy to sit on the ground and that I am just staying till she gets to sleep. From sitting on the floor next to the bed, you can move gradually towards the door, even if just by a few inches a night, until you are out in the hall. Hopefully this will work well for you, although no guarantees!

I do have to say, Katie has a cousin who is nearly 5 and, when she comes over to stay, I really struggle to get the two of them calmed down and asleep at a reasonable time. The best I have managed is about 8.30, but often it will be 9 or even 10!! The fact is, they are just so excited to see each other it is hard for them to keep calm. Sadly, I have resorted to 'threats' such as, 'if you two keep talking I am going to have to move one of you to another room so you can get some sleep. It is important that you are rested because we are doing 'xyz' tomorrow'. I have followed through with this on 2 occasions and I think they have kind of got the message now. I am generally not into threats or punishments of any kind, so this has only been when I think I am genuinely going to get angry....

Sorry for the ramble - really hope this helps a tiny bit.

(((hugs)))

xx

[Layla]

I like the idea of sitting on a chair. I do anticipate that she will wriggle and play and sit up etc... she finds it very hard to switch off and calm down. If she does that what should we do? Just keep telling her to lie down?

You know whenever I do Isabella's bedtime routine and she's in and out of her bed or she's jumping up and down, I say to her (very calm by the way) "Isabella I am here to help you relax and go to sleep. If you want to play I can leave you to it" and 9 out of 10times she will sit down and we read books together. If she continues to jump around, I leave her & if she's upset about it, I come back and explain to her that she needs to try and relax and we continue reading books, etc.... So in you case.... if you decide to sit by her bed in a chair and she's playing around, you could get up and tell her something similar.