Author Topic: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am  (Read 2513 times)

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Offline Genser

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Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« on: June 11, 2008, 14:49:10 pm »
Hi all

We were very lucky with our wee DD who started sleeping through the night very early on from about 7pm to 6am.  Suddenly about 10 days ago she has started to wake at 4.30am and when she does resettle she only goes into 45 minute nap mode and needs resettling every 45 minutes.

We are looking for suggestions as to why she is now waking and what we can do about it?

Thanks
p.s. I feel a little selfish because I am very grateful for the good respite between 7pm and 4.30am!

Her new routine is.........

Bed at 7pm where she settles well.  She uses a dummy and is swaddled (but she gets her hands out of swaddle now - it is more a cue)

Awake at 4.30am - cranky and doing funny cries (I think it is wind - judging from the smell in the cot!).  But not sure if she wakes and then has wind or if it is wind that wakes her.  She is also begining to learn to self sooth and has started to suck her fingers and I am not sure if some of what I think are wind cries turn in to mantra cries.  This episode usually lasts about 30 mins and ends with me giving her the dummy to help her back to sleep.

Awake at 5.45am (assuming was asleep again at 5am) - She used to sleep in our room with us and this was a very bright room.  When she woke at this time she thought it was play time.  We have now moved her to the nursery where there are dark curtains (I now sleep there too) and she wakes happy but not playful (rubbing eyes etc), if I give her dummy she happily goes back to sleep.

Awake at 6.30am - happy and wanting to play for the day.  We leave her in the cot for a little while before getting her up for the day.

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Also my responses to the generic questions:

How old is your child? - 3.5 months
What’s his/her daily routine? EASAS
Wakes about 6am or 6.30am and sings hapily in cot.  We get her up at 7am for first feed.
A for about an hour after that and then nap (45 mins), followed by A and then another nap (45 mins)
Next E is 10.30ish with similar pattern to above after this and before 2pm feed.
Next period has more quiet A time as she get more tired later in the day and also she takes less of a sleep just before 6pm feed. 
Eat at 6pm followed by bath, book and bed at 7pm.

What’s nap routine? - See above
How long are naps? - 45 minutes (longer in car), but first 1.5hour one this morning in cot! Trying to lenghen naps, but only recently discovered easy.
What's bedtime routine? Time? - feed at 6pm, bath, book and bed at 7pm for sleep at 7.20ish
Do you bottle or breastfed?? Bottle
How much? or how long? Feed at 7am, 10.30am, 2pm, 6pm and dreamfeed at 10pm.  Takes bottle (usually 180ml, except smaller DF) quite quickly.

How many wakes per night? Wakes about 4.30am, and then when settled after than she does a further 45 minute nap.  Sometimes two 45 minute naps (but I usually want her up at 7am to start the day).

What’s your LO like when waking at night? Usually cries with wind.  How long is he/she up?  Might last half hour, I try not to take her from the cot.
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? See above.  Or is it a mantra cry? Not sure????
What have you tried to settle?? Had on tummy and shhh shhhh, nothing seems to work really (incl dummy) until (what I think is wind) has passed.  Eventually after about 30 mins if I give her dummy and tuck her in she settles.

What do you do for A time and how long is it?  Lasts 1.5 to 2 hours.  Activities vary from walks outside in sling, playmat, music, blowing bubbles and songs etc etc to more calm ones like just cuddles or calm walk round house with calm singing towards end of A time.

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones? Don't think so.

Do they have a prop? If so what is it? Dummy for settling to sleep and swaddle (at night only and now gets hand out of it)
Do they have a lovie? - no but want to introduce one, sounds like good idea.
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Offline Genser

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #1 on: June 11, 2008, 14:55:53 pm »
Forgot to mention - only discovered BW couple of weeks ago.  Struggling to fix lots of very well meant accidental perenting.  So much wrong with my routine it is difficult to know where to start....

Her night sleeps were the one thing that were going right!

Offline stagemanager2

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #2 on: June 11, 2008, 22:11:46 pm »
hello :)

I would suspect she is waking for the dummy.  At this time of night los tend to wake and fall back asleep on their own.  If they have a prop such as a dummy then it shows very quickly at this time of night because they need it to fall back asleep.  Also after 3mo that is when the dummy tends to become a prop.  Usually it isn't a problem until they hit the 3month mark and it looks like that might be what's happening here ;) You may consider weaning it.  That helped with these nw for us at this age...

What kind of schedule do you have right now?  Can you post it in EAS style?
Heather





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Offline Genser

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #3 on: June 12, 2008, 07:32:38 am »
Can try EASY style, but with the night wakings it has been upset a lot as she is now awake before breakfast at 7am and then tired straight after e.g. ES.  Also last night she woke at 5am.

Before the problem began it was far from perfect but...

A - 6.30am [wake up happy]
E - 7am - 200ml
A
S - 8.15am to 9am
A -
S - 10 to 10.45am

E - 10.45am - 170ml
A
S - 12.30am - 2pm [only if in own bed and sometimes needs help to extend 45mins]

E - 2pm - 200ml
A
S - 4.45pm - 5.30pm [sometimes co-incides with 6pm feed, but hard as OT easily if out and about]
A -

E 6pm - 200ml
A - gentle - bath/book
S - 7.15pm (bed at 7pm)

E - 100ml to 150ml [D/F]

For past week with exception of this morning

Now the first session is more like
A 4.30am (for 30 mins or thereabout to settle)
S 5.45am (e.g. quick sleep depending on when settled)
A


This morning

A 5am [but wide awake and happy, could not settle even with dummy.  Didn't try food as not crying for it]
E 7am [as per usual]
A still - [I am sure she must be OT but have tried settling, now given up and letting her have A time]


Am very confused.  Thought myself as to whether it might have been dummy..but wasn't sure.  When she wakes she not crying for dummy.  She does make so many noises as if she is trying to self sooth back to sleep and then they turn into cries after ages.  This is when I get confused as to whether they are mantra cries or dummy/fustration cries.  I am worried I am doing the wrong thing at this stage.  This is my key key concern and keeps me awake with worry.

I am going to work hard at helping her extend daytime naps beyond 45mins and self soothing.  Unfortunately have had so much on with medical appointments this past week I have had to be out of the house so much.  Far from ideal for both of us...

This weekend and Mon-Wed next week are very busy with my parents over.  In your opinion do you think it would be best to wait to hold off trying to make 'major' changes during this time, as I would not be able to put up with crying in front of guests and give in...

Thanks for your help.

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #4 on: June 12, 2008, 13:02:43 pm »
hi im no expertbut my dd is nearly 6months and we ve had this for about 3 wks now and beleive ours is due to developmental, trying to crawl etc,
it could be number of reasons eg the dummy, ajusting routines, developmental or a growth spurt but that on lasts a few days, i hope you find the answer soon
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Offline Genser

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #5 on: June 12, 2008, 15:05:48 pm »
Yeah to be honest no idea what is going on.

This is the second morning in a row she has had a 1.5 or 2 hour nap.  Also had another long nap at lunchtime, although I had to 'help' her by giving her dummy (so there may be a prop issue...).

Think we have so many sleep problems I just don't know what to tackle first

1. 45 min naps
2. Dummy
3. Waking at 4.30am/Early waking
4. Also we very loosely swaddle her, which she gets out of.  But I think this is another contributing factor to the 45 min nap.

Her wind is getting much better as she is getting older.  We were using homeopatheic granules (colesynth) earlier on.  This was when it was more colic.  Did provide some relief.  Usually just 30 mins - but very useful if you want to stop crying long enought to have dinner.  Think the farts are now just something she is going to have to grow out of...

Will monitor her new routine and see if there is a pattern and devise a plan accordingly!! Where to begin..

Offline stagemanager2

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #6 on: June 12, 2008, 21:06:03 pm »
my goodness- hugs...

Are those A times ending by her cues or are you watching the clock?  I just want to let you know ds was only awake for about 1hr 15min at the most at this age... it looks like sometimes the Atimes are 2hrs??? Or is that just bc of how long it takes to settle for naps?  Of course it's strange that she is wide awake early in the morning if the A times are too long.  I would be mindful of those... it might help with the longer naps... even if you are able to shorten the first A time perhaps it would help with the rest of the day????

I think you may want to take a look at weaning that swaddle and the dummy next.  The 45min naps, and the ew are things I think will go away with weaning both props.  We went through similar happenings at this age and when we weaned the swaddle and dummy we suddenly had a babe who would sleep from 7-6:30... I am not sure if you would want to do it now.  With company your lo will be very ot if you try to wean it now... unless you are going to try the gentle removal weaning... here's some info:

https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=2361.0
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52857.0

check out those two posts just for an idea... it might make you change your mind or it might give you the strength to do it... I know it's scary but I' pretty sure it will help...
Heather





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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #7 on: June 13, 2008, 06:51:56 am »
Yes the A times sometimes include settle down time.  My schedule is very very rough and does change +/- 30mins (except food) quite a bit.

Past two mornings her A time in the morning seems to be based on time from when we take her out of cot.  This morning is was 1 hour 40 mins.  I tried to put her down earlier but she was having none of it.  The A are based on watching her cues (the clock helps with moving to more calming A), but when the first yawn comes we go into singing and patting (trying to establish nap routine).  If I put in her in cot before she is ready, it feels like I am 'forcing' her to nap and it takes ages to settle.  If I get it spot on with cues it is immediate (with my army of props!)

One hour 15mins was about it until very very recently and any more would have resulted in mayham.  But it is since (of her own doing) the night stuff has started, that her A has increased by her own accord.  It just doesn't make sense. 

Last night she had a really bad night (for her anyway).  Maybe it was because I let DH look after her, so I could get my first ever night off?? She woke at 3am.  DH thinks farts woke her from light sleep, after that she went back for 45 mins.  From about 4.30am when she woke and he went to settle her she was squeeling with delight and wanting to play - is that because it was daddy and he is the fun guy???? Does that mean I am on nights forever??? Or even worse is the NW getting worse??? {I know there are no answers to this}

Had decided this morning that I want to wean the dummy.  Seems futile trying to extend the 45 min naps under false pretences.  Not going to try anything 'cold turkey' till folks leave, it was mum who introduced it in the first place.  But that said it was a godsend in the first 3 months, especially when she had colic - think she is a v sucky baby.

Will read links - thanks.  How did you wean?  How easy/hard was it for your LO, and more importantly you?

Offline Genser

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #8 on: June 13, 2008, 08:07:06 am »
Hi all

Update - was reading bottle feeding section.  Have posted thread there.  Seems like she also exhibits signs of teathing and constipation... think I will colate list of things wrong with her and draw up an order in which to tackle things.

Am at wits end...seems so many things could be causing this  ???  Really crap timing to have parents coming.

Offline stagemanager2

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #9 on: June 13, 2008, 17:58:50 pm »
we weaned our ds cold turkey... it took 3days, they were hard but then it was heaven!  of course when there was a weekend there we were out of town and he hadn't slept forever... I just got a paci and he fall right to sleep but of course this also means hes an addict again... le sigh, silly mommy!


About the dad and squeeling... my ds does this aswell, well used to.  We had to start to both do wind downs and night duty for a bit for that to pass.  We found that when dh didn't do either ds would just get over excited... it's not that he's more fun, it's that he is someone different and means a different thing... atleast that's how we explained it to ourselves.  But now dh deals with most naps and I am on night duty as he works nights and is here in the morning to deal with that.  Even if your dh could try to put him down for one nap a day for a few days it might change the screetching! lol -

the first time I noticed it was when I had gotten sick and everytime dh went in to get ds to sleep I could hear him giggle and scream with delight while dh was doing wind down... when I would wake from a nap dh would say

"he is funny when you try to get him to have a nap... he just laughs!"

I said "no love, he only does that when you put him down..." 

he thought a moment and then said "ok... so it is unusual that it took 50min to get him to sleep for nap?"

yes yes it is...

Also (to get back on the subject ::) ) lengthening those A times is good if she is waking happy in the night as she may be getting too much sleep in the day.  I wouldn't push her too much as it sounds like you guys have a good routine going but just something to think about.  Are you going in when she "calls" for you or when she is mantra crying?
Heather





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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #10 on: June 13, 2008, 18:11:59 pm »
That is one of the problems.  Up until now she has shared our room and I think I have been a little to keen to go to her.  This past week I moved her to her nursery and I stayed in there with her for a few nights on my own.  Felt more comfortable experimenting letting her cry.  Think I am getting better at knowing the difference between mantra cries and calling for me.

Doing best to wait until called for.  Probably not getting it right all the time, but hey ho...

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #11 on: June 13, 2008, 18:23:52 pm »
keep at it!  you're doing great! ;D
Heather





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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #12 on: June 15, 2008, 07:42:54 am »
Well an update - no longer 4.30am waking, times now more erratic  ???.  Either me or DH have been staying in nursery with her...her is the latest

Thursday night - 3am (ish) - DH looked after her ('plugged' immediately when woke)
Friday night - 3.12am (left self sooth my me until I could take slurping no more, which was 45mins, she is not crying for me, just odd mantra cry.)

We bought baby monitors and I went back to my own room last night  :).  Perhaps a step back in one regard as was quite quick to plug (but hopefully that will change).  Too excited about being in own bed.
Saturday night - 3.50am ('plugged' but don't think she was asking for it)

Questions
How long should it take babies to self sooth back to sleep?
Does anyone have problems with their wee ones not having controls of their arms, she is either pulling soother out (when its in) or if hitting herself in face when falling asleep???  Currently swaddle but she keeps escaping and I don't think she will be able to self sooth without her hands.  This is a big problem for us.

Am going to try weaning dummy later in week.  This seems like a never ending circle of problems.

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Re: Help - was good sleeper now waking at 4.30am
« Reply #13 on: June 16, 2008, 02:43:30 am »
Questions
How long should it take babies to self sooth back to sleep?
Does anyone have problems with their wee ones not having controls of their arms, she is either pulling soother out (when its in) or if hitting herself in face when falling asleep???  Currently swaddle but she keeps escaping and I don't think she will be able to self sooth without her hands.  This is a big problem for us.

Am going to try weaning dummy later in week.  This seems like a never ending circle of problems.

When ds was dummy weaned it took him about 15-20min to get back to sleep by himself.  It sounds like it is most likely the dummy making these nw happen.  Esspecially if they are at different times throughout the night.  The hands being out is something ds started being able to control at about 4 mo... it is different for every babe.  It sounds like you are doing well and I'm glad there is some progress! :)  Keep it up and enjoy your own bed! ;)
Heather





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