out of ideas...starting to give up

[dredhead]

Hi
I last posted when my lol was 41/2months, then thought id just weather the time and wait for that "it'll work itself through" time that everyone constantly told me was just around the corner...

DD is now 8 1/2 months and im totally pooped with nightwakings ALL through the night.  Theres no pattern except she WILL NOT go to sleep without being rocked in arms.  Shes a spirited babe BTW...
Ill do a list of the things Ive tried:

shh pat (not a hope)
pu/pd - makes her mad and sob even more.  I cant even lower her to the cot without a wail and a fight.
solids (didnt make a difference)
crawling (shes practically WALKING and is so energetic all day)
earlier/later bed times (no differnce)
walk in/out - she will stand in her cot and wail and hyperventilate hysterically for hours

We have got rid of the dummy...no change in wakings except now she tries despertately to suck me/arm/boob whatever and sobs when she cant.

What is next? DH is aiming for leaving her to cry and keeping popping in.  SHe really will NOT just give up and fall asleep though and we are talking hours of her getting more and more hyperanxious!!!

Im so tired by now that the idea of being up all night for a renewed fighting campaign just makes me want to cry! Im back working 6 days a week so there just isnt a good time to start!

THeres no pattern with wake ups, times or days, just that 2 hours is about the max time asleep in any one row. 

She is a chronic 40 min max napper too, just to help matters!
What is next please everyone?! I would post a routine but exact times change daily due to get up times in the morning: we will always try to fit in at least 3 naps a day and bedtime from 6.30-7.30.  She'll eat  when waking (or nibble through the night too...), then c. 11am, 2pm, 4.30pm, before bed.  and through the night again.  Not a big eater, about 4 oz bottle each time max (exp.bf) and refusing most solids at the moment.  no teeth yet but i doubt if thats a factor as shes been like this since dot.

Help help help!!! all out of ideas now, totally stumped and totally pooped!
xRuth

[stagemanager2]

hun hugs.... I know right now it seems impossible and I'm sure the fact that people told you it would go away on it's own has just irritated the point.  So I'll try to write a short and to the point post as I'm sure you are too tired to read a long one:

1) waking for hunger?  Are you feeding every 4hrs?  Even if the naps are sparatic and off you may want to focus on getting food into her every 4hrs (so she'll take more every feed) as she may not be getting enough food in the day and thus be waking in the night for it.

2) I would try to cut that last nap... perhaps she is getting too much sleep in the day.  Having two long naps might help instead of the 3 short ones.  Also might help with ew and nw aswell.

3) it sounds as though you have become a prop and with spirited babes getting rid of those are HARD! But anything that she can stand at this point to get her down other then the rocking... I know she doesn't like shpat but we did what we called rub hum... we rubbed ds arm or belly as the patting botherd him and the hum was something that seemed to calm him rather then really scare him like the shh did.  Try to wean yourself from her... if you need more specific help on weaning yourself you could go to the prop board.

4) Rule out SA:
https://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=62612.0

5) also try to rule out teething pain, or developmental milestones... you may want to try some pain meds before she goes down for the night as this may just be pain waking her and the fact she wants something in her mouth constantly.  I hear teething can go on for months... it is for us... going on month two... For developmental milestones give her LOTs of time to practice.

I know this is really long... sorry hth

[brenda2]

HUGS HUGS!!!  i can hear your frustration!!

it can get better, really it can.

i think your main problem is as stagemanager said, you are a prop!!! this is causing her to have her short naps, because she can't transition, and also waking several times a night to bf or cuddle or rock or whatever back to sleep.

we had 6-8 NWs every night back when DD was 5 months because i had gotten into the habit of bfing her to sleep and cuddling her when she woke (we were on holiday and i wanted to keep her quiet...prior to this she had been a good sleeper) anyway, when we got home we did pu/pd and after a few nights of HE** (90 min pu/pd night 1, 80 min pu/pd night 2) she was sleeping through the night.  i really think if you want this to happen and are consistent with your approach this will happen for you too.  it just may take a bit of time because she has had 8+ months of relying on you to fall asleep and she has never learned to do it herself.  but she can, you will just need to be strong!

so i think you need to wean the props to fall asleep.  this will mean pu/pd or walk in walk out or some variation of that.  as stagemanager said, SA and teething may be complications but i think you just have to stay the course and teach her how to do it.  there will be crying, don't get me wrong, and it may take time but if you stay consistent and don't give in you will see results.

[dredhead]

Thanks so much for getting back to me - I know it seems as if everyone on here has an issue they think is MASSIVE, and it usually is to them, which is why ive tried to keep perspective and be relaxed and deal with it on my own so far.  But its gone toofar now!

so, another night, another candle burnt at both ends!  She did really well first part of the evening, down (with rocking but not falling asleep at the breast) about 7.30, then not up until 12.30am (wow!some days she manages this, others shes up a million times restless by 10pm!).  Then short feed, asleep again for an hour, then another short feed and took a bit longer to settle this time.  Then from 2.40-5.00am in her own cot.  And that was it.  No amount of gentle removal helped her realise this was the way to go and she was rooting and wanting wanting wanting.  I tried rocking her, everything, but refused to feed her again so at least we could have a decent breakfast on a schedule for once!  Managed a 20 min nap about 6am and the up for good.  phew!

So, lets think.  How should I start the evenings sleep pattern?  we have a bath, then a fight for changing (shes so wriggly and never stays still for 2 seconds!) a feed or as many as it takes to calm her down finally and into bed.  try to read or other things calmly too - best thing is just to turn the light out (we have blackout blinds which really help) and that slows her down a bit! 

Should i wait until the night time to start leaving her in the cot while still wide awake?  I dont know if I can face starting fighting at bedtime of the evening!  mind you in the middle of the night all night is hardly a fab option either!  BUT it has to be!
So i put her in the cot.  she will instantly wail and leap up and bang the sides clamber about etc.  What should I do then?
How will it differ from the first time down to bed from in the middle of the night? Im guessing I start with nights rather than naps...?
xx

[Genser]

Sorry if this is a rubbish and completely irrelevant idea....new to all this.  But you said any ideas....

Could you ask some one relative/friend to come in and do a night for you?  Mind you they would want to be very close and understanding.  Not sure if you would be comfortable with that...

Or even perhaps take her for a full day so as you could and catch up on much needed sleep before starting on a campaign...

Wish you luck and big hugs...I too have an erratic 45 min napper.  Know what you mean about trying to post a routine when the day begins at different times.

[stagemanager2]

Naps are great to start with... It might be less of a fight to get her down.  I always thought that if we were having probs with night sleep and I knew it was a prop to start with weaning it from naps so you have a few times to try during the day where you might be more metally suited to deal...

also agree with pp about catching up on sleep... it might be something you need to do to jumpstart those focusing vibes!

[dredhead]

Thanks for your good vibes and hugs! much appreciated!
ive just re read my previous posts and sound a right grumpy sod! sorry, im really a cheery person, i guess im just trying to get things down in a few snatched moments between work and housework and baby so its becoming blah blah blah! ill try to keep it lighter!

my  mum has been a star at coming down and covering nights for the odd weekend (apparently i was just the same as a baby - and Im a twin! i have more and more respect for my own mother with every passing occassion, any one else find that with babies?!).  Im teaching full time in cluding baby swimming saturdys though so any chance of a lie in or catch up snooze is out (maybe i could just set the kids some work then nap under a table somewhere?! might not work so well in the pool though..).

its going to have to be nightimes to start with as its 5 weeks until summer holidays and until then shell be in nursery so theres no way to get them to go this for me.  Its hard enough dropping her off and wimpering and clingy some days anyways, let alone getting another hang up for it!
so ill start tonight...no rocking, only hold to calm then straight into cot, where ill hold her and gently jiggle a bit maybe, then ease off completely.  Ill only feed twice in the whole night and only before 4am.  After that its wait until 7am (unless she by some miracle hasnt woken before 4...?!)

shes started another cold today too, shes always coming back down with them from nursery, i guess because she isnt sleeping enough to fight them off completely. i could use this as an excuse to not start tonight but then again shes always getting colds so this rate ill keep putting it off!

anyways, shes already down , so lets begin the battle!wish me luck!
xx

[dredhead]

oh and in answer to the teething question, shes been chewing at things etc since forever (3 months....?) and still no teeth. plus shes been this bad at sleep also since forever so i cant (unfortunately!) plonk it on the fault of teething!
SA certainly, especially since nursery starting, but again the sleep monster has been about always!
thanks for making a checklist for me to think about clearly thoughxx

[IsaacMoon]

Hi,

I don't know whether this could be an idea for you, but I remember seeing Tracy Hogg do this on one of her TV shows (or maybe I'm putting more than one of them together, anyway....)

Would she sleep if you slept next to her?

You could try crawling into bed with her and sleeping with her there for a night. The next night you could move to sleeping next to her on a matress on the floor. Then each night you gradually move the mattress a bit further away until you're at the door ...

Just thought I'd mention it as a similar technique helped with our older one when she wouldn't go to sleep without us. Granted, it wasn't quite as bad, and I never crawled into bed with her but we sat next to her cot and then gradually moved the chair closer and closer to the door each night and then just stood outside the door for a while the next few nights.

Anyway, I just really feel for you reading your post, and thought this might be an idea...

Hope things get better soon. xxx

[brenda2]

hugs dredhead.  you have a lot going on!  working, no sleep, nursery, oh boy!  sounds like you are starting the process, good for you, it will be tough but really worth it in the end!

i agree with stagemanager 2, often when weaning props, naps are best to start with, especially nap #1 as it's usually the easiest to put them down for.

i think having her play in the crib to ease the crib phobia at any time is fine...i wouldn't wait until bedtime.

i agree with only feeding twice in the night as a max (she probably doesn't need more than 1 feed, but you have to start somewhere), definitely i wouldn't feed if it's only been an hour since her last feed.  i would do at least 4 hours between feeds, because it's not really hunger if before then, it's habit.

i would do the pu/pd and stay in the room with her as pp said until she's asleep.

consistency is key, so once you start, keep at it and don't cave!  i mean if she wakes up and you decide you're not going to feed her this time, do your pu/pd or whatever method until she goes back to sleep, no matter how long it takes.  if you do it for a little while and  then cave and feed her it's going to be way harder next time because she'll have learned that if she holds out long enough she gets what she wants!

[Genser]

Hi Dreadhead

Really hope things went well for you last night.  Either way at least the first night is over. Big hugs.

Thinking of you.  Am in the process of coming up with a plan as for when I will be brave enough to start the weaning from props.  Think it will be Thursday this week.

Sounds like you have so much going on.  You make me feel so guilty for feeling tired.  Seriously - you actually must have so much stored energy - you are doing fab!

Let us know how you are going.

Genser
x

[dredhead]

Thanks so much Genser for your lovely words! it really does help to have hugs!!!
well, i havent been feeding so much at night and though she has woken, weve picked her up, then as soon as possible, put her slowly back down in the cot...mostly pretty good.  Ive fed at about 1.30 both nights and then again about an hour later (strangely?!) and then not until proper morning time (about 6.15).  Her days see to start about 5 as from then she finds it really hard to settle properly again, ive camped out in her room from about 2am to give dh a bit of a break from me clambering in and out of bed! She went back to sleep this morning again after the feed at 6.15 which was at least something!

but now as I speak shes been up since 11.30 and i just CANNOT get her to sleep (im sure if I went for a walk in the ERGO then she would but Im finally refusing!  Itll be a 5pm bath and 6pm bedtime tonight - so tiring!! shes charging about the place, clambering on everything and climbing everything, i spend my time chasing after her  - she even goes after the hoover round the room!

ill keep you posted with nights progress, good luck genser with the prop weaning! it aint easy for us but im sure some babies fall straight into it - hope your babe is one!!!
lol

Ruthx