30 min naps ... cant be OT??? Advice PLEASE!!

[campbellchick]

Jacqui - if it makes you feel any better, I could have written half of your post myself!  I am totally hearing you - my dd is so inconsistent and our NW's range between 2 & 5 a night - with almost the same day as previously.  I am now convinced that she her NW's are not related totally to our day - but have no idea how she can wake about 3-5 times most nights, then suddenly only twice   Very confusing.  My dd is now sick again  so our routine has gone totally out the window  and I'm pumping like crazy since she wasn't eating much 2 weeks ago when she got sick and my milk dropped, now she isn't eating much again and my milk hasn't fully come back yet!!!

Anyway, Jacqui - happy birthday to your ds  .  Wow, 3 - I'll bet you think the time has just flown past.  My ds turns 2 in about 4 weeks - scary....

Karina - how are things going with you and your ds?

[proudmum]

Hi Kerrie,

I know, it's just so all over the place, I agree with you that maybe NW's not related to day, but then it leaves the question of WHY      .  I could lose my mind trying to figure it all out! 

I can't belive your LO is sick again ... not at all what you need right now.    And the added drama of pumping, it's enought to drive you crazy. 

Gotta run, have a 5 min window to shower ... if you'd told me 3 years ago that things like showering, hot tea and clean clothes would become pure luxury I would have laughed 

Thinking of you, lets compare notes again soon x

[Alex mom]

Kerrie
Sorry i haven't written but my lo isn't so good and the weekend was so horrible  i decided to use W2S , so I'm trying and i don't have time for nothing i just sit beside him all the time while he sleeps , i m so agree with Jacky about the showers and tea hahhahah .

I have to go i have to come back to my sit hahhahah i will write u later when my DH take care the Baby.

i send u a lot of hugs to Ur Lo i hope Ur lo get better soon pour baby  and Happy Birthday for Ur Lo Jacky

Karina

[Alex mom]

Kerrie and Jacky

hi!! my weekend was bad one nap in the entire day, but i decided to try W2S i started on Monday, i go 10 min before he usually wakes up and the first 2 naps he never woke up just movement,  i put my hand over his leg and it worked, then the third time he woke up but it was easier to put him back to sleep, just 10 sh sh pat and the catnap well that isn't a problem because he sleeps 30 min anyway. 

Today was better the first two naps he slept the entire 1.5h without waking up i was watching him but i didn't do anything  and the next one he moved i put my hand but he never open his eyes so i think we getting better??? and the nights he still sleeping good but yesterday i put him to bed at 8 pm and we woke up at 9,10,11 finally he stay asleep at 12 woke up at 7am isn't so bad
 
Jacky my lo does the same thing with his head he moves it side to side very hard some times.

Karina
kisses

[campbellchick]

Hi Karina, it sounds like you have had a breakthrough - that is fantastic .  I hope he continues sleeping the whole nap for you.  I think once he gets used to sleeping the 1.5hrs he should continue as he may have broken the habit of short naps. 

Well done.  Also 7hrs straight at night is great too - I wish my dd would do that.  She is still up between 2 & 5 times a night and I just can't work out what the difference is when she only wakes twice opposed to 3-5 times    I am getting nervous about it because I am heading back to work soon and really don't want to be exhausted.

Anyway, Jacqui - I definitely know what you mean about the showers and cups of tea.  I had my showering plan all worked out - at dd's first nap, I'd put ds in his high chair (he doesn't really use it except in the mornings now) and put Hi-5 on for him - except now he has worked out how to get out of the straps on the high chair and was sitting up on his tray one day when I got out of the shower!!!  Hmm, so much for my showers these days 

Definitely keep in contact and compare again soon.

[Alex mom]

Kerrie

I m so worried for Ur not getting some sleep at nights  :(so i wanted to help u and I'm reading the last book of BW , that her NSW maybe is for 2 reason
1.- grow spurts
2.- habitual waking

i thing i could read Ur oldest post but is better for me to ask
so is she waking up at different time or the same hour every night??
and for her, is she falls asleep easy or not ? 
what method are u using for sleep 
How often Ur lo eats ? and how much
Now u suppose to use PU/PD

and about my day wasn't bad but he still waking up every 30-45 min just he see me there and falls asleep again the difficult for me is, i don't know how long i have to be sitting beside him is a little frustrating and my back is killing me and yesterday i put him to bed at 8.00pm and he woke up at 9.10, and after 10 he just slept for 15 min and woke up HE WAS AWAKE UNTIL 2AM  O CLOCK at least he slept until 8am i don't know what is going on now , What do u think

Karina

[proudmum]

Hi Ladies,

Karina, great news about him settling better with W2S, hope it continues to improve. You mentioned that you don't know how long to spend sitting there ... I'm in the same boat.  My LO stirs at 30 min, then 45 min, then sometimes 1hour.  But she's been improving too and sometimes I don't have to do anything, she stirs but doesn't wake up and then sleeps for 1h30mn.  But I'm not confident yet that she can last a whole nap, every time on her own.  So I go in and sit on a chair next to her cot, I even take a book and read while I'm sitting there  then I wait and just watch her.  When she stirs at 30 min, I only touch her if I can see she's going to wake up.  My rule of thumb is that I only leave when I'm satisfied with the amount of sleep she's had ... usually after an hour.  Which means I'm usually in there for 30 min.  I figure I will be happy with any sleep over 1hour and also by then I've had enough of sitting in there.   

Kerrie sorry things are still bad, I know EXACTLY what you mean about no knowing what sets off the NW's, my days are finally improving but the nights are still the same.  I would have thought that with better sleeps in the day, she would sleep better at night  I really hope that for your sake things improve, with you going back to work. 

Gotta run, hugs to you both xx

[campbellchick]

Thanks Karina, I really appreciate your concern.  I am absolutely positive that her NW's are habitual wakings - as they are at the exact same time each night.  She has 5 different waking times (although one of them ranges a bit and this is where she eats the most so I think she is actually hungry at this time), but what I can't figure out is why she only wakes on 2 of those times one night, then 3 another night, then some nights 5 etc etc .  I am naughty though because I am still feeding her back to sleep  which is why it is habitual wakings.  I am just waiting for her to get better and I will stop doing that - except will still probably feed her once a night for now anyway.  I just need to make sure she is eating enough through the day first!  Her waking times are; 2-3 hours after she goes to bed (anywhere between 8.30pm - 10pm), around 11.30pm - around 1.30am (this is the one that varies), 3.30am and 5am.  Sometimes she won't resettle at 5am and sometimes she will . 

She self settles through the day for her naps and I used to feed her to sleep for her bedtime, but have just changed that in the last week and she is coping really well and self settling almost every night for bed, so that is a good start   The main reason that has prevented me from doing ssh/pat at night over feeding her is that I have spent about a month trying to get her onto a 3.5hr eating routine - she used to snack and only take a lot of foremilk.  Sooo, I think she was still hungry at night sometimes AND because it is now habit - she fights me for up to 3hrs when I do ssh/pat.  DH can settle her most of the time I think because she knows she doesn't get food from him.  I just have to wait until she gets better before I change this habit.  However, I think it will take up a week or two of VERY rough nights to get her out of this habit.  I really really wish I could turn back the clock and have not fed her when she first stopped sttn!  I just didn't know how else to settle her.  It really has bitten me on the bum!  Anyway, enough of poor me. 

I do have a plan.  In Tracey's original book the end chapter is ABC Magic 3 day change for AP.  She has some examples of how she has changed some bad AP habits including the feeding to sleep of an 8 month old.  I thought I might follow what she did - which was use a pacifier for a week to get out of the habit of feeding, then take the paci away and do PU/PD to stop the wakings all together.  I tried the other night, but DD wouldn't take the paci.  However I will try again once she is over this cold (it might have been because she couldn't breathe ).  I am just really really hoping it works.  Anyway, we still use ssh/pat at the moment because it is still working for her.  I have tried a bit of PU/PD but she cries like her heart is breaking when I put her back down.  I think she just needs to get used to it - but as long as patting works for her (works better now without the ssh I've discovered) I'll keep using that.  Any advice you have would be greatly appreciated - keep reading and let me know incase I've missed something 

WOW - I can't believe your LO was up from 10pm - 2am  .  he sounds worse than my dd  .  Do you still think he might be OT?  This might be a long shot - but what if he is getting TOO MUCH sleep?  As I said, it is a long shot, but might be possible?  How much sleep is he getting overall on an average day?  I could only imagine your back is killing you - not to mention RSI of the wrist!!!   .  I really feel for you.

Jackie - I am so pleased to hear that something is improving - the days are a good start anyway.  The nights will come later - we hope  .  Let's all keep telling each other that and it will keep us going!!! 

I feel bad for complaining when you both are sitting in your LO's room for each of their naps to resettle them.  When my dd takes a nap - I can never predict how long it will be for, but I don't need to keep going in to resettle her at least.  Even if she does a 45 min nap, I just get her up as she will usually give me a longer one later.  We are down to most days her having at least 1 long nap - even if she only gets 1 or 2 other naps, they are generally much shorter though. She is averaging about 2.5 - 3hrs of naps a day (some days even less though still).  Jacqui - how do you sit in there when your ds is home? 

Anyway, have got to keep cleaning this house as it won't clean itself!!!  Big hugs to both of you -   

[proudmum]

Hi Kerrie, great to get a bit more background into what's going on with you.  also good to hear you have a plan and I think it sounds like a good one.  you sound like me, I'm forever planning the next step and trying to figure out the best way to do things.  I hope your LO gets better soon, it's so hard when they're sick and everything kinda goes out the window a bit. 

I also felt the same about feeding at night, worried that she didn't get enough during the day.  Then I decided she was getting enough and managed to cut down to 1 feed a night, and now I'm back to worrying about it again because since she's started solids she's not too interested in the breast.  You've never seen anyone so passionate about food   

Great to hear that the naps have improved Kerrie, at least something is better  .  and isn't hindsight a beautiful thing ... I know there are a lot of things I'd change if I could go back, but also I think you probably did what you thought was best at the time, so don't be too hard on yourself.  I think if you can get DH on board to help out when you decide to stop the night feeding, it will make a big difference, since she seems to settle easier with him.  And I feel that if you persevere and be consistent it will be worth it.  Let us know when you decide to take the plunge and we'll be there with you the whole way 

To answer you question about what I do with my 3yo when I'm in with LO during naps .... for 2 days he's at daycare so I don't have to worry, 1 day I have my mum helping out, so it's really only 2 days.  He's an angel, I usually make sure he is occupied, having lunch, watching tv, playing a game, and just explain to him what I have to do.  sometimes he sits just outside the door and reads books while he's waiting for me. He's such a good boy, I never worry about him getting up to no good, he just plays happily or watches TV or whatever.  Also he has a 2-3 hour nap everyday so I try to time it right so that I'm settling her while he's asleep.  Some days are not easy but I have to say I'm blessed with my little boy, he's very understanding and good.  I think the age gap helps too, he's old enough to understand things more and accept them. 

So heres to a good night to all of us  hugs to you both 

[campbellchick]

Thank you so much Jacqui for your support.   I feel a lot better, especially in saying that you think I was just doing what I thought was right.  I will definitely let you know when I go cold turkey on these feeds - except the 1 a night.  DH has agreed to help me over the weekend to take turns to resettle her, so hopefully she will cope okay 

I'm sorry to hear that your dd isn't into the breast so much, but great that she loves her solids.  My ds was the same - he's always loved food in general!  My dd hasn't really liked her pears or apples so far  .  I didn't want to try rice cereal but may have to as mixing it with BM will give her a familiar taste at least.  I hope your dd starts drinking her milk again soon 

Your ds sounds wonderful, you are very lucky.  I feel the same with mine - he is a great little boy, but a bit too young to understand about trying to settle.  Although he does like to help me pat her on the back, but I can leave him when he is eating lunch or watching hi-5 at least - even in the bath now as the bathroom is directly across the hall from dd's bedroom and I can see straight in there.  It all helps - but that is fantastic that your ds reads a book waiting - so cute.... 

Have a great weekend - I'm sure you'll be hearing from me - I'll be needing the support xx

[Alex mom]

Hi Kerrie

I have a great news today my lo slept his two first naps continuous without help  the first was 2 h 8(A=2h)and the next was 1.5  now the nights are good too he sleeps since 8 -9 to 6.30-7 am but at night i go to his room before he wakes up it works so far.

Kerrie about the Nsw u now is HW so u have two options, the W2S you go to her room 10-20 min before she wakes up it takes 3 days to break the habit for me it took me one week.

the second one is PU/PD this method is hard i think all methods are hard for the first time because Ur lo is not used to it, if u want to try this u have to be prepared to do it 100 times and don't give up , if u are tempted to quiet because i was many times with ssh sh pat just think you made Ur Lo miserable 45 min for nothing, believe me with my Lo was the same thing i had a really bad habit to hold him in my arms to sleep and i was holding him until 3 am every night since finally he was tired to fight me when i tried to put him to bed and stay there, so after 2 months i said this has to stop i started to do the sh sh pat and he cried the world out and i wanted to quit so many times but i thought i am just teaching my baby how to sleep so i keep doing and now i m proud of myself and my Lo we both did it

i know u had tried before PU/PD but u quit , this time stick with it!!!!!!!!

to answer Ur question about is my Lo getting to much sleep here is the routine

Yesterday
6.15 woke up
7.00 E
8.00 s
he slept 2  Hours because he had 2 h A
10.00 E
11.40 S
1.10  he slept 1.30 h
1.10 E
2.40 S   ( A= 1.30)
3.15 woke up just for 15 min
4.00 E
5.40 S
6.20 awake
7.20 E & B
8 or 9 Sleep

first nap 2h
second   1.5h
third      1.5h or 1.15h
fourth     0.30
=5.30 h is too much ?

Anyway tell me when u start with the PU/Pd i wish u luck
 xoxoxo
Karina

[campbellchick]

Hi Karina, congratulations - that is just fantastic  .  You should be very proud of yourself, that is such a great effort you have put in.  I'm very proud of you for sticking with it, you deserve to finally have your ds sleeping long naps.

I don't think that 5hr 30 sounds like too much sleep at his age, it is probably about right.  There is a link on the sleep board to a general guideline of how much sleep babies need at different ages.  I'll take a look.

I need to wait a little longer before trying to wean off the feeding to sleep at night as dd is still sick.  She is quite miserable today - but only had 3 NW's last night - one I used a dummy, but her nose is too stuffed up for it as she can't breath with it.  She did resettle for 30 mins with it though, so I might get some success when she is better.  Then I'll get rid of it once she is used to not feeding anymore. 

Did you persist with PU/PD the whole time?  I am still using ssh/pat as it works for her (through the day anyway), but want to talk to other people with spirited LO's how they went using it.  I'll let you know when we are going to start our night training 

I hope you have a great night & day, let me know how it is going 

[Alex mom]

hi Kerrie u are right to wait if u lo still sick, pour baby  i wish u the best and u Lo get well very soon.

Well today it was little different he woke up and second and third naps but is more easy to get him back to sleep without crying
so i think, he woke up  it wasn't good but a least he was down quickly so i think i have to keep going to his room. we have bad days and good days ,  we are so better than before one day he is going to start taking long naps without help i hope anyway

Kerrie I'm still doing sh sh put with him without shshs hhahah it works but i read in the book babies after 6 months u need to use PU/PD but if with Ur lo sh sh pat still working i wouldn't change it !!!!!!

Karina
xoxoxo let me know how is Ur Lo with the cold 

[proudmum]

Hi Karina,

Wow  I am so happy to hear that your LO has been sleeping better, you have worked had and your persistence and consitency have paid off, you should be proud of yourself  There will be good and bad days but hopefully soon the good will far outweigh the bad. 

Kerrie, hope your LO is feeling better, glad to hear Dh is on board, good luck with it all and keep my posted. 

All is the same here, still up and down.  night before last, only 2 wakings, 1st one resettled easily, second one to feed.  Last night, 5 Nw's  the only thing I can figure out is if she has a decent last sleep i.e over and hour, then she will have a better night.  But it's not easy to get her so go past 30 or 45 min for that last nap.  I'm going to try put her down a bit earlier, with a shorter A time before the catnap, and then she seems to be able to last 2hours until bedtime.  I'm wondering whether I need to move on from ssh/pat to something else and she still won't fall asleep totally independently.  I always have to pat a few times, and sometimes put my other hand on her back to keep her from rolling over.  Any thoughts 

Also my other gripe is that she won't sleep in the pram or in the car, so I'm forever rushing home to get her down in her bed.  It's ok during the week but on the weekends we'd like to go out and enjoy a day together as a family, without having to rush home after a couple of hours.  If I kinda rock her to sleep in my arms, then put her in the pram and pat, she'll sometimes sleep, but only for max 30 min, so I just think its not worth it because then it puts the rest of our day out    One day we'll have a life again 

We'll must go now, baby's awake, and DS due for lunch, then shopping, laundry, dinner etc etc etc 

Jacqui x

[campbellchick]

Hi girls.  DD is doing okay, not as miserable as yesterday thankfully, but still has a runny nose and cough.  We had a good night last night with only 2 NW's (I used the vapouriser in her room, so that may have helped) and she was up again at 5.15am as usual lately - so I changed her nappy, fed her and put her back down and she slept until 7.30am    This was the first time in a long time she resettled and slept in!!! 

Anyway Jacqui I know what you mean about the last nap.  Even if I end up getting dd down for it (which is very hard - like right now - even though she is sooo tired, she just will not sleep even with ssh/pat) she won't sleep for any longer than about 45 mins too.  About your ssh/pat problem, how long do you have to pat her for when she does go to sleep?  Have you tried patting her until she closes her eyes or zones out, then stopping?  If she is going to sleep with just a couple of pats taking less than a few minutes, I think she is doing okay.  Maybe you can just put your hand on her instead of patting her before she drifts off and then stop that and just stand next to her?  I would be reluctant to try much else incase it works her up instead of the opposite.   AND I totally kwym about the not sleeping anywhere else except in her cot.  I am always trying to get places inbetween her sleep times and if I have made an appointment - you can guarantee that she will either not sleep before on the day or will be due for a nap at that time  .  She sometimes does go to sleep in the car, but not often.  Never in the pram though.  She actually went to sleep in the car today and was still sleeping when I got home, so I left the doors open and left her in there - kept checking on her every few minutes of course and she was inside the garage, but she slept for another 30 mins ontop of the 30 mins in the car - so was happy with that.  But I too don't plan whole day outings - am even nervous when I need to go out for a few hours - just because she won't sleep.  At least we do know it won't be this way forever 

Karina - Hopefully your ds will get there soon on the longer naps on his own, but you have come so far and it is such an improvement on what it was  .  We are also doing ssh/pat without the ssh for dd too.  Apparently PU/PD should be used as a last resort - so am happy to keep using patting until she is over it.  It even worked on my 23 month old ds the other day.  We have weaned him from the dummy and the nighttime was fine, but daytime was hard at naptime because he is in a big boy bed, so he wouldn't sleep without the dummy and would just bang on his door.  Anyway, the other day after about 3-4 days of naps without a dummy, he was crying when I put him down without one, so I just patted him on the back for a few minutes, then left him laying there awake but sleepy and I didn't hear from him for 3 HOURS  .  He is also sick with a cold too, so wasn't feeling well.  I couldn't believe it worked on him though!!!  We usually do Walk-In Walk-out... 

Anyway, must run dd still isn't settling, so had better see if I can help her along!