For: A pair of Charlies

[Zoey]

I copied and pasted this post from somewhere else in hopes that it gets more attention

Hi Ladies

I'm searching for ways to help my DS get past his 40 / 45 min nap problem. He settles and sleeps well at night, just not for his naps. Settles for naps well initially but just can't get back to sleep without help (physical hand holding, cheek to cheek etc) and as soon as I move, he's awake again. Grrrr....one of those mornings already!

I was reading Zoey's modified ssshh patt and wondered (before I try it) if you think this could work on a spirited baby? I did try PUPD a few weeks back (ditching the dummy) but he just got more and more worked up and took longer and longer to calm down... and then cried when he saw his crib for the next nap! I tried W2S but he just wakes up and looks at me like I've gone insane.

I want to teach him to sleep, worried that PUPD not for us, don't want to create more props (I'm the get back to sleep prop) and want to get it cracked in the next few weeks.

What do you think? Would it be a goer for a spirited nipper?

Erm, answers to questions you're likely to ask... 17 weeks old, 4EASY (for a week now, but usually 1/2 hr A time and then the rest is winddown, nap & nap avoidance), teething. Um...naps & sleep are in crib next to my bed, room has black out lining in the curtains...there are chinks of light though. Want to move him into his own room in August.

Thanks for any light and guidance you can offer on my nap-averse DS!


Charlotte

[Zoey]

Hi there!

Is there a way to get him his own sleeping area now?  Adults tend to be noisy sleepers lol - I wonder if being away from your bed may help?

Can you post your EASY routine like this:

E
A
S

Can you tell us exactly when he wakes, when you begin the wind down and when he is asleep - a typical day?  That would be a great help!

Also tell us exactly how you're getting him to sleep currently

Thanks

[A pair of Charlies]

Sorry it's taken so long to come back to you - something always happens when I'm writing this.

The trouble is his naps. He's pretty fantastic at night: the odd NW only. He won't self-soothe when he wakes from his day nap, usually at 40 / 45 minutes. Even if I try and help him back to sleep, it's just 10 min snippets then he jolts awake again and it's back to me soothing him, nod off, jolt, awake, yadda yadda...

On 4EASY for about a week or so now and he seems fine with the wait for food - he's not much of a food screamer really. Naps weren't good on 3.5 EASY either so I've tried to keep his A times low, especially in the morning.

Usual day (not today though):

E: 7 am
A: end of feed til 8.20 then wind down begins. WD takes 10 mins, then about 5 - 10 of getting him off to sleep.
S: 8.40 - 10.50 in theory. In practice, til 9.10 then off again at 9.30 ish, wakes every 10 mins or so. Usually off to a deeper sleep at 10.20 / .30 then I'll get him up for 11am unless he wakes on his own before then.

E: 11am
A: end of feed til 12.15 then wind down. If his first nap was only 40 + snippets). If he seems ok and hasn't been dozing off on the boob, then I let him stay up until 12.30 / 12.45 before off for the wind down.
S: I have him in bed by 1pm latest, but takes 10 mins to get him off. Then the same again: 40 min naps then 10 min snippets until next feed.

E: 3pm
A: end of feed til 4.45 / 5 pm when he's out in the pram. He's random at this nap: sometimes crashes out for an hour or just 20 mins.
Bath: 6, sometimes 6.30 if he's out socialising (like now)
E: 6.30 / 7 pm
S: 7 or 7.30 pm.

E: 11 or 11.30pm of 5 oz EBM or sometimes formula
A: Wake him up, nappy change (tendency to leak by dawn if I don't), bottle, quick cuddle, bed, lights out, he babbles a bit then goes to sleep.

NW: Usually around 5am and I'll try to settle him down as I don't think he's hungry, just awake and unable to settle down. I've got him off to sleep again in his crib til 6.50 am a couple of times but usually it goes wrong at this point. Tired, I cave in and pop him in bed next to me. He nods off within a minute and doesn't make a peep until I wake him up.

How he gets to sleep: Goes into crib awake following wind down. I put his thumb in his mouth, stroke his head or hold his hands and depending on how he seems, I might ssshh. When he seems a bit too wound up (often), I put my face on his or cheek to cheek for a minute and breathe in & out deeply. Seems to calm him and distracts him from his frenzy, picking up the relaxed breathing. I usually gently talk to him, mainly the same thing over and over: It's sleepy time now. Ssshhhh. Just relax, be calm and sleep will come.

Frustration #1: Just before we started 4EASY we got to a stage where at bedtime, we could leave him to go to sleep alone. He'd have his bedtime routine and I'd leave him drowsy, sucking his thumb. This stopped around a week ago when: he had his vaccinations, started 4EASY, I left him to cry a little instead of rushing in all the time (not CIO). Since then, there's a crying fuss each time he goes down. Even late night now.

Frustration #2: His feeding from the boob has gone a bit wierd in recent days. He's bobbing off after 10 mins wailing, then back on, wail, back off, til he just gives up. He's generally a happy munch but has been prone to happy / sad swtiches and a lot of wailing. I think he's teething but I also think something else is up - under another thread in BFeeding.

Sleeping arrangements: He sleeps in crib next to my bed. Generally quiet all night until 5 ish (when it's lighter). Black out lining in curtains but chinks allow light in. Waiting for BO blinds to be made for his room and will move him in there by Sept.

Nap arrangements: In crib while I or DH sits or lie on the bed next to it. I was sleeping there too for some of his naps so that I could nip his waking in the bud. When I do this, just having my hand there (held or next to cheek) will be enough for him to go back to sleep. I stopped doing this thinking that I was making things worse. I started to return to the room if he woke and cried, would settle him and leave. Since I tried that for one nap, he now won't settle on his own at all. GRRRRRRRR.....

The attempts: PUPD doesn't seem a goer. He's spirited and doesn't seem to calm down with each PUPD, just gets more worked up. The screaming kills me: ear infection in both ears (joy) and dodgy, painful wrists (a winner) and I hate to see him so upset.

Disheartened and discouraged. I have been his prop from the start and have been gently trying to pull back. He would only sleep in my arms up to 2 months old! I got him to nap on bed with me, then gradually into his crib. He and I need for him to be able to sleep for longer and sleep independently. We're off on hols in 3 weeks and I don't want the experience to knock him for 6. I want to give him everything he needs to be able to sleep independently so he knows he can do it. And I can't do all the housework in 40 min snippets!!

Sorry it's so long. I've rambled. I'm trying not to get too wound up with his naps and will nap with him occasionally if it means he'll sleep. But that just avoids the problem and I'm more of a fix kind.

What do you reckon?

Charlotte

[A pair of Charlies]

Mixed bag of emotions:     &    &    &    &    & 

[deckchariot]

wow!  Thanks for providing all that info!  And well done on wanting to teach him to sleep independently!  And it sounds like you're trying to wean from you as a prop - all of this is excellent!!!  Not that it's easy - but you are definitely on the right track.

Since he's a spirited bub, he probably prefers a short winddown - and if you're doing 10 min, that may actually be too much for him (especially if you're staying with him while he falls asleep in addition to the wind down).  Other mums of spirited bubs have often posted that their winddown is not much more than a diaper change, a quick hug an in to bed.  I guess the longer wind down actually winds up a spirited bub.  Also, I know room environment is really key - darkness, low stimulation (no mobile, no stuff hanging near his crib to look at etc.).  It looks like you're working on the BO curtains..again, that's great!  It's possible that your room is a bit too stimulating for him  - so maybe just take a look around at what's near his crib.

You mention that he's waking after 40/45 min, which normally would indicate undertired.  But it looks from your routine that his first nap is 30 min - which would indicate overtired to me.  If it's UT, you could try adding just 5 min to his A time, or take away 5 min if it's OT.  I do believe spirited bubs usually run low on the A time, so that could be the 30 min nap issue - he still needs  a bit less A time.  Of course, if you cut down your winddown, but still start at the same time, that will cut down his A time.

pu/pd is probably too overstimulating for him (you're right there), so you may need to modify it a bit.  You mentioned having read Zoey's post about a modified shh/pat....I would try that.  If he always wakes at the same spot during his nap, you could try w2s.  Also, is he swaddled?  He may be jolting himself awake between sleep cycles, and swaddling can really help with that.

Finally, it could be developmental.....babies sort out day and night sleep differently, night sleep develops first (0-3 mos) and day sleep later (3-6 mos), so some of it he may grow out of.

hang in there!!!!  It really does get better!

hth
michelle

[Zoey]

Hi Charlotte!  I'm glad to hear from you   You post like me, I love it!

Great advice from deckchariot.  I won't offer too much more info, don't want to overload you - but you let us know how else to help.  But I do want to wonder if you placing his thumb in his mouth may be becoming an issue - will he do this on his own?  Is he sucking it until he is asleep?  Do you think when he comes to that lighter sleep, he is noticing his thumb isn't there and he can't suck so he wakes fully?  Maybe not, just something to think about.

Btw, you have done a lot of work thus far.  Moving from sleeping on you (this was what happened to us), to sleeping in the bed with you, then to the crib is amazing!  Be proud of you and your baby because that stuff is amazing!

Well done you, keep us posted okay?
Zoey

PS I forgot to HUG you (((HUGS)))

[A pair of Charlies]

Thanks to you both!

He finds his thumb on his own. I put it in his mouth out of habit I guess - saves him wriggling around. If I stay there I move it out before he's deep asleep if he hasn't popped it out himself. But I'll keep an eye on that and see.  When I do kip next to him during his nap I notice that he just seems to wake up and that's it for him. He'll toss and turn, suck, stroke his head, fiddle with covers, more tossing his head around and makes every effort (bless!) to get back to sleep. Then he either crys (frustration or help, I don't know) OR nods off for 10 mins max and jolts awake.

I haven't swaddled him for the last month as he was finding his thumb well and is very handsy. Seems to wake him up more if he's trying to get hands free.

I'll look at his A times and also will cut his wind down and see what happens. He doesn't really do sleep cues til way past friendly - and then they come all at once! 

What do you think of this? Should I go back to napping on the bed next to him and help him through the 40 min mark, i.e. put a hand there before or as he wakes. My thinking was that if I can get him used to going to sleep, waking up, going straight back to sleep (without drama) and then backed off some more each time, then he might develop his own way of making the sleep cycle transition...?  Or would I just continue being the prop?

It's that or I take the bull by the horns and we have a few days of high drama. A bit hard with wrist splints on but worth it. I don't think the OT, can't feed, grouchy-pudding route we're is working. It's not fair on him really.

Any thoughts appreciated.

[Zoey]

You could try swaddling with one arm out, or try the Aussie swaddle:  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=1439.msg773602#msg773602

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi

Really sorry to trouble you both again but I was wondering if you might be able to steer me in the right direction?

A quick update on where I've got to:
 * shortened wind-down so it's a nappy change, close curtains, dance and sing to bed, into bed (still singing) and then the stroking, thumb sucking til he's asleep.  Crys until I put his thumb in (won't do this himself if he's crying  ). The wind-down is working well and he's usually off to sleep within 5 mins. Timing is erratic as sometimes he's waking at the 30 min mark, most at 40/45 mins and 3 times at 1 1/2 hrs (whoppeeee) - all with the same A times. Won't settle with DH though.     I'm looking at his nights in relation to A times.
 * self-settling getting worse. When he's alone when he wakes, he goes from grizzle to cry to passioned cry to downright furious. He doesn't settle without me. DH used to beable to get him to sleep same as me but recently it's me or no sleep, just furious screaming.
 * nights: he's started waking up after being put down to bed at night and never used to do this. It was the one time I could count on him staying down for a three hours at least. He's waking earlier to which is odd because I thought light was waking him...but dawn's later and he's waking earlier...I'm not convinced it's hunger (he'll go back to sleep if in bed with me). Hmmmmm. When he stirs at night, he will not settle without my intervention - stroking his head, holding his hand or similar. Once he's stirred the first time and I've got him back to sleep, he stirs again soon after I take my hand away etc. A touch annoying.
 * no swaddle as it's been unusually hot here so worried about SIDS (no aircon) and I couldn't face the fight. He does find his thumb easily and often strokes his own head - just not when he's crying for me to come.
 * teething: lumpy gums but not read and no breakthrough. Could be bothering Charles so I put teething gel on gums when going down for a nap.

Looks obvious to me that I'm a prop and that my softly softly withdrawl just isn't working. Worried that if I continue softly approach I'm just cementing my role as sleep prop.

Started the shh patt modified thingumy today to teach him to settle. I didn't start it at the beginning of the nap as I was still umming and ahhhing over it. When he woke during the nap I started: went up, kissed forehead, 'time for sleeping now', and started patting his chest. He popped his thumb straight in his mouth and nodded off before I finished the patting. I left, 10 minutes later, same thing but stopped crying as soon as I went in the room (does this often...grrrr & yey!), didn't even get a chance to slow my patting he was off. Then he stirred a wee bit (eyes opened, looked at me, closed) and off to sleep.

And so it goes!! He screams - misses the mantra entirely - I open the door, he stops screaming, looks at me, pops his thumb in, closes eyes and nodds off. The last time I didn't even touch him.

Do you think I'm doing this right? I don't want to leave him to cry because everytime I've let him cry for 5 mins, we regress with his sleeping. But this is insane and can't be good rest for him hollering every 10 minutes.

Apologies for troubling you both again and for rambling like a crazy. No one else I can ask for sensible considered answer ('shut the door and leave him to cry it out' is the common advice). I just want to help him get to independent sleep so he can get more rest & be self relient and help me so I'm less tired and begurdging of DH for not being able to help.

Thanks in advance for any thoughts you can share

Charlotte - bordering on neurotic   

[Zoey]

Hi there!

"Started the shh patt modified thingumy today to teach him to settle. I didn't start it at the beginning of the nap as I was still umming and ahhhing over it. When he woke during the nap I started: went up, kissed forehead, 'time for sleeping now', and started patting his chest. He popped his thumb straight in his mouth and nodded off before I finished the patting. I left, 10 minutes later, same thing but stopped crying as soon as I went in the room (does this often...grrrr & yey!), didn't even get a chance to slow my patting he was off. Then he stirred a wee bit (eyes opened, looked at me, closed) and off to sleep."
Be sure you're going in only for an "I need you cry"  - if he isn't crying a proper cry, he doesn't need you.  Always assess the cry, you want to give him ample opportunities to self soothe, he can't if you rush in know what I mean?  Also, watch him closely when you're patting.  As SOON as he see him starting to settle, slow your patting.  You do not want to create another prop of him needing you to pat.  Only help him as much as he needs, you're not putting him to sleep - you're helping him stay calm so he can put himself to sleep. 

I agree about no swaddle if there isn't AC.  Could you get a fan or something too?  Fans make great white noise.

"I open the door, he stops screaming, looks at me, pops his thumb in, closes eyes and nodds off. The last time I didn't even touch him."
Again, make sure it's a real cry before going in.  If so, you can also try to use your voice at this point.  Open the door a crack, don't go in but say, "It's time for sleep." or whatever your phrase is.  Naturally go in to him if anything develops into a real cry.

"Do you think I'm doing this right? I don't want to leave him to cry because everytime I've let him cry for 5 mins, we regress with his sleeping. But this is insane and can't be good rest for him hollering every 10 minutes"
No he shouldn't be left alone to cry a real cry for any period of time.  If he is crying a real cry, he needs you with him.  If the crying stops IMMEDIATELY when you enter the room, I wonder if it's a real cry or if he is learning that if he fusses a little you will come in?  Not in a manipulative way, but these kiddos are really smart   Sometimes we need to take one step back into to take two forward.  If a little crying (with you with him) is needed in order to break the props that have been formed, it could be worth it in the end. 

"But this is insane and can't be good rest for him hollering every 10 minutes."
To me this means either he isn't fully asleep when you leave (perhaps an A time issue), or there is a reason like hunger or pain (perhaps teething pain) that is causing him to wake every 10m.  I personally don't love teething gel, have you tried some yourself?  It makes your entire mouth numb, including your throat.  Some people are ok with that, but I don't like the idea of the throat being numb lol.  I don't want to project my fears onto you so try some yourself and see what you think.  Tylenol works well at this age for teething pain (always check with your pedi before giving anything new).  If it's hunger, perhaps we need to look at his feeding routine?

"Won't settle with DH though." 
Make sure you are both doing exactly the same thing for each situation so he isn't confused.  Consistency is important.  Have DH keep trying, you really don't want a situation where only you can be there for sleep, that's no fun.

"Apologies for troubling you both again and for rambling like a crazy. No one else I can ask for sensible considered answer ('shut the door and leave him to cry it out' is the common advice). I just want to help him get to independent sleep so he can get more rest & be self relient and help me so I'm less tired and begurdging of DH for not being able to help."
no need to apologize, it's no trouble at all!  Have a talk with DH and see what he is doing (if anything) differently.  Perhaps sending DH is the way to go, since HE isn't a prop

Hope this helps some!
Z

[A pair of Charlies]

I understand what you're saying about the cry. He just doesn't seem to have a mantra cry - that or DH and I don't hear the difference. I leave him to grizzle and the bit when it turns into a cry but hadn't been leaving him to cry fervently. Yesterday he settled himself during both naps towards the end. Felt a bit rotten waking him up for a feed but I think he really thrives on a routine.

Today I left him to grizzle, then cry and waited til it sounded really 'I need you'. Each time he stopped when I came in the room, the second time started crying again until I patted, then stopped and started babbling. grrrr. So I left him to it, he cried and I gave it some time (cry was the same as other times) but when I went in he had tears and silent sobs when the crying stopped. Think I missed the 'I need you' cry. 

A couple of questions if that's okay?

 * If he's stopped crying by the time I get to the crib, should I bother patting him towards sleep or stay with him while he tries to doze off or just say 'time for sleeping now' and quietly leave?
 * If he's dosing off within a minute of patting should I pat to sleep or just slow down and stop (what I was doing yesterday) and let him do the rest himself. Yesterday I was leaving him in the eyes closed, sucking and drifting off to sleep stage - I didn't wait til he was in a deep sleep as I thought I should just reassure then go.

He seems reassured when I go in and is then okay with getting himself to sleep. Last night all I did was say 'it's time for sleeping now' and he went quiet and off to sleep. It's like he wans to know that I'm there. I do feel like it's a control game and he knows that if he cries I'll come / or show myself. The longer I leave him to cry, the more awake he is and the harder it seems for him to go to sleep.

Ho hum. Just put him down, stroked head, kiss cheek and 'time for sleeping now. Will see you after your nap'. He was kicking about merrily, not dozy at all so I left. A minute of grizzling and he's quiet.

No blumin pattern to this!!    Has me miffed and confused.

Thanks

The miffed

ps. ditched teething gel. Tried it and it's grim.

[Zoey]

Hi there - big hugs!  Chin up girl, you're doing great!

"Think I missed the 'I need you' cry."
That is ok, you are learning too.  It's so hard to know.

"If he's stopped crying by the time I get to the crib, should I bother patting him towards sleep or stay with him while he tries to doze off or just say 'time for sleeping now' and quietly leave?"
I would would try to use your voice, stay near the crib (perhaps not even in view) and say your phrase and see if that works.  I wouldn't pat/shh him unless he is crying, there is really no need. 

Is the room darkened?  That may really help.  Tin foil, or poster board do the trick.

"If he's dosing off within a minute of patting should I pat to sleep or just slow down and stop (what I was doing yesterday) and let him do the rest himself. Yesterday I was leaving him in the eyes closed, sucking and drifting off to sleep stage - I didn't wait til he was in a deep sleep as I thought I should just reassure then go."
I think you should help him as much as he needs, not more and not less.  Remember your goal is not to put him to sleep, its to stay with him - when he needs you - and to pat/shh him to help him stay calm and re-assured.  Stop short of putting him to sleep, this is his job.  I started slowing when O was calm and settling, I could tell how he reacted to my slowly whether or not he was settling and getting ready to fall asleep. 

So I would, wind down put him in the crib, leave.  If he cries the I need you cry, go in re-assure him with your phrase, and step out of view.  If he cries more say your phrase from where you're standing.  If he still cries or doesn't stop crying when you speak, go to him, say your phrase and place your hand on him.  If he is still crying, pat.  Just do what he needs, no more, no less.  If you have to pat, and he stops crying immediately - pat slowly and slow it down and stop.

Does this make sense?  I really don't want you to be a prop in the room, so try to get out when you feel he is settled and going off - return if he needs you and repeat.  Get the room darker so he can't see you, try coming in, perhaps crawling (I did this) or opening the door and just using your voice without him seeing you.  Remember he isn't manipulating you, he is just learning what he is taught    so try to nip that cause and effect in the butt now. 

Owen didn't have a mantra cry either    It makes it hard.

You are doing great, don't get discouraged!  He is doing super, and is almost there I know it.  I'm glad you ditched the gel lol.  I'm a nurse and sometimes I think that makes me freak out more than needed with baby stuff  but that gel makes me really uneasy. 

I hope this helps, hang in there.
Zoey

[A pair of Charlies]

Thanks for the guidance. 

He's a wiley one. He woke up screaming earlier so suddenly and shrill that I legged it upstairs in a flash (put myself 'shhh, it's time for sleeping' head on first). I really thought he's broken his arm or leg in the crib bars the way he was going on. Anyway, got to the crib and he stopped.  A few sobs but that was all, thankfully. I think he just wants to control his environment and get me in the room. He's doing a similar thing with feeding by wailing when the let down slows or stops a little, refusing to work for the hind milk. I didn't expect a battle of wills with a baby!

If I look back over the past week, particularly the last few days he has got loads better. At bedtime I snuck out when he was dozey and sucking away. Haven't heard a peep. 

Thanks again for the know-how and also for the heads up on the gel. Hadn't thought of trying out the baby products on me first but think I will from now on. That gel just felt really odd and would've disturbed my sleep if someone rubbed all over my mouth!

Hopefully I'll get this cracked before we go on holiday. Driving through Europe for a day at start and end so keeping him in a routine will be tough! Reckon it'll be less unsettling if I can teach him to self-soothe before we go. Fingers crossed the Swedes have black out curtains...

Feeling less neurotic, thank you

Charlotte 

[Zoey]

Lol you're welcome. 

Bring some tinfoil

Remember too, crying is the way they communicate - he is just really great at it! 

You seem like such a caring and lovely Mumma.  I'm glad I've "met" you.  Keep me posted on how you're doing! 

[A pair of Charlies]

Tin foil packed! Along with a few metres of good black out blind fabric, a box of pins (to fix to curtains) and a few pairs of rubgy socks (they'r ace stuffed into the cracks along the top of curtains!). 

Glad to have met you too. You've been such a great friend to me while I'm trying to get Charles and I on the right sleep track and I don't think I'd have got this far without your guidance and troubleshooting. So thank you.

The whole sleep initiative slipped a little over the weekend as he went from sleeping angel at 1 1/2 hrs (self soothed at 45 mins!!) to horror boy unable to sleep at all. Just got so wrought up he was totally wired and hyper, not in a crying way, just uncontrollable super-giddiness. So I had to intervene to get him to sleep, and the same for the next night. But we're getting back on track!

Will let you know how we get on.

Thanks again,

Charlotte & Charles x