Ever shortening A times...

[Vicku]

Hi Katt hun,

Well done for figuring out the OS and DH at home changing the routine. That's happened here too and Lois is getting a bit OT the last few days and have had some EW and short naps too Reading this just made me realise it might be a good idea slowing things down a bit, but it's so nice to be getting out together... makes it hard.

Lois had a bout of serious accumulated chronic OT during her 2-1 nap switch. Went on from christmas time (when she also had an ear infection) til mid April time. OT did cause NW like the ones you describe, crying out, so it might be that...
These spirited ones are more sensitive to routine changes and OS too aren't they.

Thinking of you and hoping she'll recover from whatever's bothering her and life will be back to normal for you. Let me know how you get on babe!

[lesorl]

Katt- I wonder if when Leorah is OT and you've already missed the window if it's worth it to put her down even later, on the theory she needs to get past the OT into a deep sleep?  Or maybe try a short 20 min catnap around 3.5-4 hours post wake up, and then a long (hopefully) nap about 2 hours later?

M doesn't sleep well out, so maybe you could take a walk around nap time while at your Nan's?

I hope things improve soon  

[skatty]

Hello girls, we tried for the nap way too late today and ....no nap  It does seem like she is teething again, she has only eaten and ice lolly and a couple of grapes today but will gulp milk down like there is no tomorrow, she has a white bump on one of her back molars and is chewing on that side but she doesn't seem to be in any pain apart from at night so could it really be a contributor  Leslie you are so right that when we miss her window we should put her later but when??? We have already decided we can't go back to 3½ hour A times so need to wait for the next window but have absolutely no idea when this will be, I kept my eye on her all afternoon tried to feed her tea at 4pm for a bedtime of 5 and she took Martin by the hand and lead him to the bath! She does this when she is tired and wants to get on with the night routine. Whenever she has teethed previously her A times have shortened to around 4 hours but to be OT for less than 4 hours is ridiculous! Does the nap window shorten when OT, it seems if we blink we miss it at the mo'  I wouldn't mind if it wasn't effecting her fabulous night sleep but it is and it is getting worse as each day goes by for the last 10 days.

Tomorrow I have decided that if L sleeps until after 7 am we will go to nan's early and leave after 6 hours of A time as it takes over an hour to get home, if she wakes early I will try for a nap after 3½ hours knowing she will play me up but at least she will be sitting though now we have the great pleasure of her being able to get out of the straps of her pushchair and stand up and climb out  A walk wont work as it will be way too interesting being in a new place, to much to see, YKWIM!

Vicku I am glad you are  catching the OS and OT in the early stages, hopefully you can nip it in the bud. We have wondered how much her new hearing is effecting her, she is so chatty at the mo' and repeating a lot and having new words and just seems to be having a developemental leap in her understanding, probably because she can hear now. I do have this awful feeling it could be the independance, not sure that will pass so I hope not  Reading past posts it seems a prime age for nap resistance and no nap days, it just seems unlikely that she would go from a 4½ hour A time and shorter and shorter and then drop the nap as well as have EWs and Nws. You are right about spirited LOs being sensitive to routine changes and OS, I used to be so careful but as she got more able to handle different stuff I have become sloppy and now she is suffering and so am I! I am wondering whether wearing her out to exhaustion but be ready to put her down at a moments notice will help as last Saturday she went out with her grandad and great nan and they came to meet me and she was exhausted at 3½ hours and nearly fell asleep in my arms but I took her home and fed her a snack before I put her down and she had a second wind and took 2 hours to drop off, I am not sure she gives any tired signs until too late at the mo.

Sorry for the long moean, it is good to have people to bounce ideas off though, thanks for the support and any more ideas greatly welcomed 

[lesorl]

Oh No Katt...  one other thought is that though she's showing tired signs early, when you put her down its too early and then she gets OT, which is why it takes soooo long for her to fall asleep.  What were her A times before this past week?  I'd go with what they were for a few days, along with early bedtimes, and see if that gets the train back on the track.

[skatty]

Since the end of May since her molars bumped up and she got sick I have been putting her down at around 4hrs15 (15-30 mins early) then one day bam she is OT by then  I already had that same thought but the later I put her down the longer she takes to get to sleep, the shortest time she has taken in the last 10 days is 35 mins after putting her at 3hrs50 that is the shortest A time I tried and the most successful (yesterday), she hadn't shown any tired signs really, it seems when she shows tired signs it is too late.  I also put her down after 5 hours the other day and it took her 2 hours to sleep and that was on a walk in the end and she slept 33 minutes! The wierd thing is she seems to do better with no nap at all than with a short nap  She was asleep just before 5pm tonight, cried her eyes out when DH left the room which she always does when OT so he stayed with her and she was fast asleep in about 2 minutes! It is nearly 9.30pm and I haven't heard a sound yet though she will often cry out between 3 and 4 hours after going to sleep when OT, I gave her meds tonight so we'll see what happens. I have been reading on the net elsewhere about toddlers not napping and it is much more common with non BWs! One message was interesting, somones LO had their ears drained and then their sleep went off track and she wondered if it was because of the extra stimulation hearing but noone answered her. Apart from not napping L hasn't shown any of the common signs of dropping so we may just wait it out and see. I am glad I log her sleep because I can see the troubles began the last week of May when her molars started bumping up, almost the same thing happened then but it was more obvious so I nipped it in the bud, we had EWs and OT naps after too long A time. I don't think I'll ever moan about a short nap again lol!

[Vicku]

I hope things will settle soon hun! What I did in the end when Lois was badly OT was I decided on a TIME for the nap and stuck with it. I had tried juggling the A times and nothing seemed to get better and in the end I felt the inconsistency just made her more confused along myself. We had lots of EW though and early nap and so early bed just resulted in more EW's. It took a wbile, about a week, but then she started setting her body clock to that nap time and things got better. Don't know if that's a good idea for you now though as she seems to do worse if A time gets long

The other thing we did/do if she's OT or unwell is we do the odd '2-nap day' where we put her down about 9:30 (2.5-3 hrs A time) and let her have a nap then and then again about 1 or 2 depending on how long she slept. That has helped her catch up on sleep and 'reset' bedtime and so EW. Just giving you some ideas and sharing what we've done/do, so just take what might be useful and leave the rest

Also, have you tried doing the nap in her bed instead of the pram? any difference? the same? I remember someone else (on another thread I think) asked that too and said it might be too stimulating/interesting for her in there

Lois just popped another tooth (lower canine) so might explain some of her trouble last few days

Hugs to you 2 from us 2!!!

[lesorl]

I'd second the going by clock time rather than A times- it's too darn difficult to figure out with A times.  M has finally for almost the last week napped for at least 1 hour each day, and we've been going by clock times (anti jinx here).

[skatty]

Girls I just want to give you both a massive hug for being there for us at the mo' things have gone from bad to terrible  10m mins after I posted last night Leorah woke up and didn't get back to sleep for 3 hours  That was after midnight and she was awake at 7.15am! We had to go to Martin's nans and she almost fell asleep in the car but I kept her awake as I was scared she wouldn't take another nap later but then she wouldn't nap there either! I actually saw her pass over from relaxed to wired and I swear it was a window of a couple of minutes at around 3hrs A time, she was then wired but I decided to try for an early nap and it was no go, she finally melted down into a huge tantrum, she couldn't control it and I sat with her stroking her leg and she finally closed her eyes and jolted awake after a minute and that was it no more hope  We decided to go home early so she'd sleep in the car but it was so hot and she moaned and moaned and even though the back windows are blacked out the sun kept getting in her eyes but finally it moved and after nearly an hour she fell into a very jumpy sleep for just under 40 mins. I told DH to keep driving even though the petrol is expensive but it only worked out about £5 so it was worth every penny to me!

I am so tempted to pick a time and stick with it but what time? If it is not in the right window it will be no nap! If I catch her early when she is tired then she will still have a huge A time before bed but maybe that is better than nothing? My other idea is to let her pass through the second wind and try and get her down after that peaks, what do you think? Unfortunately there is no way she will sleep in her cot, that is purely for night sleep for her, I have tried in the past! I may try for the 2 nap day tomorrow but if i get her sleeping I don't think I can bring myself to wake her so may just go for a boring afternoon and early bed. She has lost so much sleep now that she is finding it hard to drop off and when she does she can't stay asleep  I don't know how things got so bad so fast, her A times are so sensitive I should have been more careful but I hear about other Lo's her age doing well on much more A time and less sleep and think she can handle more.

Vicku I would definitely say that things have been off track because of the canine, they cause problems for everyone! M's nan thinks L is teething because she wont eat and when she cries she bites her hands but she is always teething and things have never got this bad before. Last night after about 2½ hours we gave her medicine so I don't know if it helped or she had just exhausted herself  If she wakes tonight we will give her medicine straight away but I am sure when she first woke it was OT, when she wakes teething she has a sad cry, last night she started off with a moan and then talking, we stupidly stayed in her room because she was upset but if it happens tonight it will be WIWO, I think company prolongs the wakings KWIM? I know it sounds awful but when L is OT I think she sometimes needs to get upset to let off steam so she can sleep. I am so out of my depth here, I normally catch her OT nowadays, we haven't had any long Nws like this for about a year! Early bed normally catches her up but after not napping her body is obviously too stimulated to stay asleep 

Again thanks for your help, please send vibes to us for a good night and I have sent some to you! Touch wood that as of yet she is settling very well at bedtime, I am just praying she can stay asleep.

I hope you have both had a good day, Katt x

.

[jcsmom]

Hi Katt,
Since you have been so helpful to me, I just wanted to extend some (((HUGS))) your way.
I too think that just picking a time and sticking to it for a nap, may at this point be your best bet. Perhaps her internal clock is so out of whack that her body does not know when to be awake and when to be asleep thus the no naps and NWs.
Now, from what I remember she sleeps about 15 hours or more in 24, right?Could you just pick a time 5 hours after her usual waking or a bit early to compensate for EWs sometimes and stick to it for a week, moving bedtime up by 30-60 mins if she short naps?
I am not really one that should be giving advice, as my DS is totally OT right now, but I picked 11:30 and am going to give it a week no matter what. I have moved bedtime up 1 hour and 15 mins from his 2nap a day bedtime, most days a full hour as he just naps his normal am nap time and never more. He has never consolidated his 2 naps and we have been going through this since 12 months!
Anyway, enough rambling. I say go for the gusto and pick a time. What's worse than no nap days anyway, right?

[skatty]

Thanks Jcs mom, I am tempted to do what you say but I tried 5 hrs A time and that was my first no nap day and it all spiralled from there! I am not sure where to go from here but was considering seeing how the night goes and then study her intently tomorrow to see what her clues are that she is about to go into overdrive! I also have to remember that her sleep needs are like a much younger LO so I have to stop comparing and maybe just go with the clues she gives me. In the last 24 hours alone she has a deficit of about 5 hours so it is not surprising she is so wired all day, as she is such a good sleeper normally I can really see that tantrums are linked in a major way to lack of sleep! I am definitely going to fight this and get her back on track but I have a feeling this wont happen until next week as my mum and brother are coming to stay. Dh is back at work next week so I hope I can get some consistancy back in her life  I think my biggest problem now is dealing with the fact that she is finding it almost impossible to unwind, she is in a constant state of hyperactivity 

I do feel bad for you having troubles all these months. My DD was a terrible napper her whole first year so transitioning to 1 nap was the best thing we ever did, all her previous OT spells have been fixed quickly with short A times and early bed but I totally missed it this time and it is lie she is 9 months old again but worse because she is louder and more mobile! I do hope you get onto a good thing soon, (((hugs))) Katt 

[Vicku]

This must be so confusing and frustrating for you Katt I think you're right that you need to go with HER and what you know she needs and is like and not compare with other LOs her age too much. If she's always needed more than average sleep, like mine's always had less, then that's probably just what she's like. Go with your instincts! And obviously if she needs more sleep, her A times will be shorter.

One thing that helped me with Lois' naps was when I igured out that she could handle a longer a time in the am than in the pm. Some LOs are the opposite and needs a shorter am A and can handle longer pm A, and some seem to thrive on equal length A times. So maybe if you have a think and watch her cues like you said, you can figure that out? Maybe you already know?
If you know this it's easier to set a time for the nap that then can be altered slightly with varying circumstances day to day.

As I'm reading RYSC now I thought about suggesting doing more of the 'soothing activities' stated in there to help her unwind if they work.

Hope you mum and brother's stay will be nice and not make things worse sleep wise for her. I'm very happy to be able to give you support and be here for you as I know how difficult these times are. I'm here to vent to and I'll send some big sleep vibes your way!!! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[lesorl]

Oh Katt honey- massive hugs and sleep vibes your way 

Could you try the short catnap in the stroller and then a longer pm nap about 2 hours later?

I hope you get a good loooonnnggg night!

[skatty]

Thank you for the sleep vibes they worked  Leorah was in bed at 5.15pm, definitely asleep within 20 mins, had a brief waking at 4am where Martin gave her a medicine top up, he left after 5 mins as she settled straight away, after another 5 mins she must have realised he wasn't there and cried out halfheartedly and went back to sleep until 7.15am  She is playing in her cot now and dare I say she sounds a bit wired already  When she wakes OT she is very loud as soon as she wakes up and she is in there squealing! I am going to play it by ear this morning, I am pretty convinced teething is a part of the equation now, meds seem to be helping a lot, I also sprinkled lavender oil on her sheets, this has worked in th epast to help calm her down so now I need to work out how I can do it for her nap, sprinkle her pushchair?

Vicku, L also normally can handlle more A time before her nap but at the mo' it seems both A times are very sensitive, I know I am mad but I would even accept a short nap now rather than no nap at all. As she had a good night Leslie I am going to leave the catnap, it is too risky that she wont go for a second nap!

Thank you girls 

[skatty]

Well today has been interesting! Tantrums from wake up about everything, not wanting her shoes on, not wanting to be in the pushchair, then not wanting to walk and have me carry her etc etc. She is really teething today, biting, stinky nappies, runny nose etc so that may well have a big part to play in all this. We had a very low key morning, at 3hrs she was sitting very relaxed on my lap watching a dvd and then she got some energy again but not wired but I still decided to put her down at 4hrs. She played for a while as usual but was happy and then she settled and I really thought she'd sleep as she had nurofen earlier in the morning and it is supposed to last 6-8 hours  but NO!! It is like she can only sleep if she is motion! I took her out walking and within 2 minutes she was sitting quietly with her eyes shut and by 10 mins she was out but at exactly 30 mins she woke, I don't know if it was because she was OT or because a c o c k erel crowed  Anyway she was so miserable and crying her eyes out so I kept walking and she laid with her eyes closed for another 20 mins but didn't sleep. Her teething is terrible, when I went to give her the dummy back she dropped on the floor she took my hands and pressed them to her jaw and the whole time she was out in her pushchair walking she just held her jaw moaning. Lucky for me a new Teletubbies dvd I ordered had arrived when we got back and she is now as happy as Larry!

I guess we are going to have to ride this out, I'll see what happens tonight and for now I am playing each day by ear until I can work out some consistancy, right now I am just praying for these teeth to break through 

[NiknLily]

Crikey Katt, sorry I missed all this honey, you've been through the ringer here with L sleep.

For what its worth I think there are a whole bunch of things happening here that have contributed, teething L always teeths badly, regaining her hearing and all the stimulation that brings, having DH home for so long and your general activity levels having been increased probably trickled in some OT.  And not least skipping a nap.  I know L loves her sleep, but she is still developmetally at the age where nap skipping can occurr so maybe adding this to the pot really won't be helping.

My advice would also of been to pick a nap time worked on a slightly less A time than she was doing prior to all this and a bedtime based loosly on her 'normal' nap time length + A time and only adjusted this if you had seriously short nap or no nap.  Not sure that would of been any use to you as L seems to have her own sleep rule book ;-) but I have to agree that when they get all messed up and A times have been all over the place then restting their clock is sometimes the only way forward, even if that results in things getting a whole lot worse for a few days before they get better.  I don't know L at all (well only a little :-) ) but as they get older most peope find you can't go by sleep cues at all, they get too vague and can be misleading.

And I know L is definitly OT at present, but to add to the nap skipping which as you know Lily did her fair share of, taking 35-40mins to get to sleep and then taking a short OT nap is also something which happens when their A times need to be extended.  When Lily did this consistantly for a few weeks I upped her nap from 12 to 12.30pm and suddenly she started going to sleep withing 5mins again.  When she went down too early she played past the time she should of gone to sleep then finally would take an OT nap as a result.  So in essence when they need longer A times but can't happily make that transition themselves they can then get OT from actually taking poor naps and bedtime struggles, making it seem like less A time is needed when actually its the opposite.  Does that make sence?

Well they are my thoughts for what there worth ;-)
Hugs honey
Nik x

Just read your post, speedy teething vibes sent L's way *********