Sleep solutions for a 10-week old?

[monopod]

Hello all, this is my first proper post so please bear with me. I know the sleep difficulties I've been having with mini monopod are time-honoured ones here but I do suppose every baby and parent are different so it may be worth me airing my own saga! I shall apologise in advance for my long-windedness.

The background:

Mini monopod is 10 weeks old and we've been trying to follow the BW principles since week 1 - with how much success I am unsure. I actually intended to post when he was 6 weeks old, but what with one thing and another am only getting round to it now! Perhaps this is in some ways a good thing, because he has changed the goalposts so many times that the worries I originally had are in fact no longer apply... I've also learnt to relax a little bit and am not so neurotic anymore about his not fitting into the right boxes or not sleeping through like other people's babies, but I figure that there's plenty of room for improvement

Essentially we're having problems with daytime naps. He used to have nice long 1.5/2h naps, but that was quite some weeks ago. I think a proper pattern is emerging now though, and I believe its name is OT. Except I'm not quite sure. He frequently wakes crying/screaming after 30mins, and then it's anyone's guess as to whether he'll be able to go back to sleep with either shh-pat (we used to try to do this by the book but that has kind of fallen by the wayside...) or with the help of his dummy, but most of the time we end up feeding early because he's been awake too long.

I haven't yet tried a dream feed - I am bfing and he has *no* sucking reflex when asleep so I had intended to try and introduce a dream feed with EBM (no chance of achieving it with milk direct from the source!), but temporarily stopped expressing when I got mastitis (all better now so am going to start expressing again tomorrow). Because of this, and because it has so far worked fairly well for us, I'm not putting him to bed as early as 1900 or 2000 as I know many people do - rather, he generally has his last feed between 2000 and 2100, and then, depending on how long he feeds for and how long it takes to get him to sleep, is asleep anywhere between 2100 and 2300. I go to bed pretty much at the same time as he does. He has been sleeping through for about 5-6h (6-8h since his final feed for the previous night).

We also used to swaddle him for all his naps as well as bedtime (he used to fight when feeding and the swaddling did double-duty as a straightjacket to help me feed him properly), but have now stopped the daytime swaddling as it took him so long to fall asleep even though we were watching carefully for his sleepy cues and doing the 4'S' routine that he was spending practically the entire day swaddled, and his not being swaddled doesn't seem to have made a difference.

Our 'A' time generally consists of eating, nappy change and then chatting with mum/maybe some time on his playmat/tummy time on his lambskin/looking at some pictures (not all the options at once, I hasten to emphasise). His sleepy cues start with yawns, but it is in fact very very difficult to get him to sleep if we try to get him to sleep at this stage as he isn't sleepy enough! Next sleepy cues tend to be looking away/quietening down/starting to fuss. Still other times he doesn't seem to show any sleepy cues at all, which makes things a little difficult - he's so cheery and is chortling away at you there doesn't seem much point in trying to get him to sleep! Lately he has been needing some help from his dummy to help him off to dreamland - he sucks for a little while and then spits it out and dozes off, but is awake again after 30-40 mins.

The routine:

I'll start with what we did last night and today:

He had his last feed of the evening just before 9 (0856 - 0928). I topped him up on the other breast after his nappy change and he took a further 9 minutes worth. He was asleep between 1030 and 1100.

Our day today has been as follows. It's not a 'typical' day, but not atypical either!

E 0514 - 0545 (20 mins - the time in between 'instalments' was spent trying to rouse him!)
He was fast asleep after this and since his nappy wasn't particularly dirty, I chose to let him sleep rather than try to wake him and then try to get him back to sleep again. He then woke about an hour later, crying:

A 0640 - 0750 (cuddling to soothe him, nappy change, then had to wash his hair because he managed to get nappy rash cream all over his head (don't ask))

E 0754 - 0816
A Nappy change, put him down in his carrycot. In v. good mood, playing by himself.
S 0900 dropped off to sleep with no intervention at all.

A Woke at 0945 (OT as had been awake too long?) Tried to get him back to sleep but ended up feeding early when his cries turned to (what I think is) his hunger cry.

E 0953 - 1018, + about 3-4 extra minutes' worth
A Nappy change and time on his own in his carrycot again while I tried to get some things done.
S Dozed off at about 1135 with some aid from his dummy.

A Woke, like clockwork, at 1205. Gave dummy to help him resettle but he only slept for a further 15 minutes and was then hungry.

E 1240 - 1300
A
S Asleep by 1415 with some aid from his dummy again.

A Woke at 1445. Was very cranky at this point and had to be carried and shh-patted. Tried to put him back down several times after he had calmed down but he wasn't having any of it. Finally fed early again.

E 1518 - 1539
A Was very dopey after his feed so I opted to put him straight into his carrycot to sleep. He looked to be dozing off but woke very soon after, so I changed his nappy, etc.
S Finally managed to get him to sleep at 1700.

A You guessed it - woke at 1730. Hubby had come home by this time and took over at this point so I could get a short nap. Tried to get the little one back to sleep to no avail, though he actually ended up in a pretty good mood and was chortling away when I got him up for his feed.

E 1820 - 1855 (about 25 minutes worth really - I have an Instalment Baby)
A
S Fell asleep at about 2000 (up far too long, I know).

E/A Woke after 30mins again. Fed 2037 - 2105, did nappy change, topped him up on the other breast for a further 6 mins
S 2200 Asleep by himself in his cot upstairs after our nighttime routine (swaddle, cuddle, put down in cot in dark bedroom). Will see how long he sleeps for tonight.

The questions:

So, a few questions...

(1) Are 30-40 minute naps always OT? (I don't think it's OS as I've been so wary of over-stimulating him that he's more likely to be US than anything, but he's quite an inquisitive, alert and *awake* little chap so things may be stimulating him more than I know.) Even his first nap of the day after what I think is a reasonable night's sleep (but maybe isn't?) is like this (maybe too much first A time after he's woken for the day?).

(2) How do you get a baby to sleep when they seem inclined to do anything but? I am wary of becoming reliant on the dummy (or indeed becoming a human dummy and have since the early days tried to avoid anyone carrying him to sleep).

(3) Could part of the problem be linked to eating? I mentioned 'instalment baby' above - he often pulls off after 10 minutes or so of gobbling, but I tend to coax him back on to eat more (and he often does, though I'm not really sure how productive his sucking is during that extra time (he certainly continues to gulp it down at subsequent let-downs, but in between he seems to be sleep-sucking). I was originally v. worried about him turning into a snacker as he used to fall asleep on the breast very frequently and swiftly, so kept rousing him to eat more, and I think I've stuck with this pattern.  Round about the 20-minute mark seems to me to be right, but is it? Am I in fact keeping him on the breast for longer than he needs to, thus inadvertently extending his A time? Maybe I should stop after he pulls off the first time unless he cries to go back on, but I'm concerned that he won't have had enough and will want to eat again before the 3h mark (he keeps doing 2.5 or even 2h sometimes as it is, because he hasn't slept properly).

(4) Or maybe I should just let it be, be grateful that he's sleeping 6h at night, and wait for him to grow up 

I know I have more questions but it's late and I need to try and get to sleep so shall go. I would be really grateful for any observations and advice that you may be able to offer!

Thanks so much in advance

monopod

[marensmama]

Hi and welcome to the BW community.  Please don't take this the wrong way, but it's nice to see someone on here as longwinded as me!!!   

I think that at first glance, he's getting too much A time first thing in the morning - and actually throughout the day.  His A time, including feed, diapering and wind-down, 'should' be about 80-90 minutes max.  So he's starting the day OT with a short nap, and the day follows from there.  A time should be decreased following a short nap, so if he sleeps less than an hour, the next A time should be shorter to make up for it.

Also, I think that re: his BF habits, babies do tend to get more efficient as they grow.  What used to take 20 minutes can reasonably shorten to 10.  I'd go by his cues and not so much the clock.  If he pulls off after 10 minutes, take his word for it and see how he does on that amount of feeding.  If you have to coax him to feed all the time, it's likely that he's not actually in need of it.  The business of feeding him every 2 hrs to keep EASY is not necessary, it's OK to do AEASY, the main thing is that the feeding needs to be separated from the sleeping so you don't become his prop.  You will encourage him to take longer feeds if you wait until closer to the 3 hour mark to feed him.

I think that you will find if you try to get him on a 12 hour day (7 to 7), he'll fall into routine much easier.  He's likely OT and having a hard time settling, and the A time that he gets later in the evening is probably adding to it.  He's waking up because he can't get himself through the transition at night, and if your naps are better in the day this will help with the evenings. 

I hope I've addressed some of your issues.  If you need clarification let me know and do update on how it goes!

[monopod]

Hello marensmama  Thanks for your advice! (and I promise not to try to compete with you for the longwinded trophy in future )

Last night didn't go so well - he woke at just after 2am, and then at 5, for food (he was hungry both times). After the 5am feed (0501 - 0533 including a nappy change) he was up again around 0645/0700 (so he only slept for a further hour - this has been pretty consistent too over the past couple of weeks, with his S time after the 5am feed pretty short.

So so far we've done a rather unorthodox AESES (oh dear):

A Awake from about 0645/0700
E 0754 - 0809
I then couldn't wake him up and thought that I would see if I could get him back for a proper sleep, but to no avail - he woke about 20-30 mins later. He was showing hunger cues again (I think, through my bleary eyelids), so I offered him the breast again, which he took - a further 8 minutes. Then he went back to sleep again, for a further hour.

So far this cycle we have done:

A 0945 starting with nappy change, and he's been kicking happily about on his playmat with no signs of tiredness at all. I've been trying to hold out till closer to the 10am mark to feed him, which will have been 3h since the start of his last proper feed, but by then he'd have been awake 80-85mins already... so am going to feed now, about 2.5h, and then try to get him down quickly for a nap. I hope I'm doing the right thing...

Wish me luck  I'll be back to post again later and to ask some more questions! 

[monopod]

Well, it took an hour to get the little one to sleep  We fed from 1040 to 1100, and as you advised I didn't try and coax him beyond that (in fact I took him off because he had started to sleep-suck). I burped him and then we started our wind-down routine (which consisted of softly shh-patting him while holding him). He started to doze off on my shoulder so I put him down in his carrycot, and he was dropping off into dreamland, eyes closing and being shhed - until he did his usual thing of fighting off the sleep and deciding to coo and gurgle at me instead. After 45 mins of my being unsuccessful, hubby took over and had him asleep on his shoulder within 10 minutes 

When they won't sleep, I've read on here that, after 45 minutes of trying, you should feed early and start from scratch. Does that still apply if baby isn't crying and isn't showing hunger signs?

Also, his next feed will be due at about 1330 or so. *If* he stays asleep (fingers crossed - we are nearing the half-hour monster mark!) till then, that will work nicely, but if he wakes, do I feed him (as the next 3h cycle actually starts in 15 minutes)? If not, don't we get stuck in the AEAS routine??

[monopod]

Once again, he woke at 1240 - about 35-40 minutes. He'd stirred several times and resettled himself, but this time needed to be picked up. It's now been 20 minutes and he's refusing to go back to sleep - he keeps falling asleep on his dad's shoulder, but cries every time he's put back down (and we have been trying really hard to avoid AP!). I keep worrying about props - his needing to be held to sleep or needing a dummy to help him on his way to dreamland. So far it's been this way only during his daytime naps (touch wood!) - at night he has been sending himself to sleep after swaddling and  a cuddle, with maybe one pickup to shh-pat (total time taken about half an hour, I think). Maybe we should reintroduce the daytime swaddling as well, although that didn't seem to make a difference two weeks ago??

When do they move to a 3.5 or 4h EASY - 4 months?

Trying to get him to settle with dummy now. Not sure whether to feed him instead and to treat A time as having started from 1240  Help!

[*Helen*]

Oh my your l/o sounds just like mine (also 10wks) Although i wasn't ready yet I've just weaned him onto formula as I was about as tired as I could cope with and wasn't eating properly etc. He has since started to sleep better at night but like you it's still 30mins on the dot! for daytime naps!

I also feel like he is swaddled in a dark room all the time as well infact thats the only way he's been content since yesterday afternoon, even for his A times??? If I bring his bedtime any earlier to make up for his lack of naps he'll be going down at about 11am lol!

Hope it all gets better for you and if I find a miracle cure i'll let you know.

[monopod]

Hi Helen I have empathy for your plight!

It's now 1420 and he's still awake... have been trying to get him to sleep for nearly 30 mins now. He's been awake since 1240 so we've now gone beyond 90 mins again We did 1240 - 1320 trying to get him back to sleep, which failed, then fed from 1320 - 1340, changed his nappy and started wind-down. He wouldn't start drifting off on my shoulder, wouldn't sleep with the help with his dummy - kept smiling at me and pushing his dummy to the side like a cigar  , so I left him to his own devices in his carrycot, and he's just now starting to fuss. Bless his dad, he's taken him to shh-pat him while I have something to eat

I do think maybe it's too bright during the day, so have been trying to cut out as much light from around his carrycot as possible.  Maybe it's still too bright - he seems to get distracted/stimulated so easily!

Edit: His dad managed to get him off to dreamland again - think it's the way he's carried, a way I can't unfortunately emulate as my body isn't long enough! Reminder to self: must put him down while he's still awake though... also think we are going to restart swaddling him for daytime naps, until such time as he will no longer fit into his swaddling blankets! We'll see how long he naps for now...

[marensmama]

I think you have some prop issues (ie being held/rocked) that need to be addressed.  Also, if he's touchy or spirited, they can get OS so easily... Hayden used to get distracted by the strings on my hoodies when I was trying to pat/shh.  Anything dangling over his crib should be removed, and the room should be very dark.  She was swaddled until last week, and she's 9.5 months old (that's a bit late). 

So, if I were you, I'd take the temperament quiz if you don't know what 'kind' he is.  Then address his sleeping environment (ie swaddle, dark, nothing distracting), keep his A time very low-key and if he takes 20 minutes to wind-down, start that early enough so you're not going beyond his A time.  Do you have a wind-down routine?  If so, be sure to keep it very consistent.  Babies work on their day sleep from 3-6 months so you're just laying a good foundation for that to happen for him.  If pat/shh works, do it every time until he starts to drift, or even do it to sleep at first and then gradually quieten the shh'ing and make the pats lighter and do it for less amount of time as you go so that he's eventually starting to put himself to sleep.

Let me know what you think. 

[monopod]

I think you have some prop issues (ie being held/rocked) that need to be addressed. 

I know it! And this despite trying so hard to avoid AP

I did try to take the temperament quiz but the trouble was, my l/o is sometimes all of B, C, D and E at different times (he's definitely not an A!) - I wouldn't be surprised if he is touchy and/or spirited though, and having thought about it a lot more I think I can identify with the easy overstimulation. I think where we may have been going very wrong is expecting him to sleep in a fairly bright room. We don't have a nursery for him as yet as he's sleeping in our bedroom, so I've been trying to put him down for his naps in the living room, and I guess there's just too much to look at...

I'll resume swaddling him again for his daytime naps, and we'll see what we can do about his sleeping environment. Looks like there may be a DIY project in the offing...

Wind-down routine is more consistent at night at the moment than during the day, but that's mainly because we stopped swaddling him for his daytime naps. Swaddle, a quick cuddle and a song, and then into his crib. Shh-patting if he's crying (NB: You don't shh-pat if he isn't crying, do you?), otherwise either leaving him to settle by himself or helping him along with his dummy. I'll work on making his sleep routine more consistent now.

What can I do if he is just refusing to sleep? I guess it may be the case that he only appears not to be (OT), but it's really difficult to get him to sleep when he's in a really good mood and chortling away at you and sleep seems to be the last thing on his mind! We can get him to drop off if we hold him, but that reintroduces the prop issue. If he's crying, it all seems much more straightforward, but he can be really baffling sometimes as he just stays in a good mood for ages, wide awake and with no signs of dropping off at all.

Looking back at my logs for the past couple of weeks, it's strange but the amount of daytime sleep he's had doesn't seem to have a predictable effect on his night-time sleep - he's had days where he actually slept quite reasonably during the day, but not at night, and other days where he hardly slept at all, but then had a good 6+h stretch between 10 and 5?

[*Helen*]

I agree completley with the point about o/s! Henry is a touchy baby and I have found that when trying to settle him less is more!

Usually I sit on the bed out of sight and he drops off on his own (if only he could do that at the 30min mark!!!) If he is a bit more fussy  I have to keep my head out of view while I rest my hand on his left knee (all those game of twister in my youth were good for something, lol)

Or If he wants to see me but not feel me I stand with my back to him and don't dare move! (the things we have to do!)

I have found that having my i.pod has made the process a little less tiresome, it's also a good time to do your pelvic floor exercises! The amount of time I spend up there atm I should be able to trampoline after 6 pints of water *arf*

Pat shh has worked now and then but it has seemed to irritate rather than soothe, And I end up nearly dribbling all over him because I'm to shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh *quick breath* etc!

My H.V says his sleep will improve around the 12 week mark so fingers crossed it will become a little easier for him around then.

Good luck

[marensmama]

I used pat/shh when Hayden wasn't crying... just to get her to the point where she was going to drop off.  You just can't make eye contact with them or they think it's time to interact and get all cute.    I looked at is as my way of telling her it was time to go to sleep.  It's a fine line because you don't want to interfere with their efforts at independent sleep, but especially at first and when he's OT, he's probably too wired to settle on his own.  Once you get some decent naps and a better routine, then you can cut back on it and see how he goes on his own.  Oh, and I've shhh'd until my lips were chapped, and when I've had a cold I've dripped everywhere   Also, Hayden is a touchy/spirited bub and hated the patting, so I just kept my hand on her chest the whole time.  She finds the loud shhh'ing annoying so as her crying would come down in volume, so would my shhh'ing, until it was barely audible to her.  She likes a very short routine (like swaddle, turn the blinds, put her in crib and that's it) - any longer and it's meltdown!  So, essentially, feel free to modify the methods to suit your baby's preferences.  Pat/shh is a great tool, when Hayden was in hospital recently she would never have settled if we hadn't been using it all along (as needed now, of course).  I have a 3 year old DD as well, and I couldn't spend a ton of time settling the LO, so I'm so glad to have these tools at my disposal.

[Jrolph]

Hi All,

I am in the exact same boat.  My DD is Touchy and OMG it is so hard to get her to take naps.  I really need to go and get some Drapes, she goes to sleep so much better in the evening because it is dark.  Maybe my wind down routine is too overstimulating.  I try not to look at her during my wind down but I don't want her to fall asleep so when I check to see if she is getting relaxed, if she is looking at me then she starts to smile etc.  This is when we have our meltdown.  I guess I should start trying to lay her down earlier, it is so difficult especially once she gets O/T then I am spending forever trying to get her to sleep and my DS (who is 3) is trying to occupy himself so I can put his sister to sleep.  Man it's really hard, My son was difficult as well but he would take a soother something Kara will not.

[monopod]

marensmama, Helen, jrolph - thanks so much for your comments and advice. Helen - LOL at 6 pints and a trampoline!

An update:

Today we made our bedroom as dark as we could (two sets of each-not-so-great blackout blinds), resumed the swaddling, and ensured that we followed the same wind-down routine for each of his naps (bar one because I had to go out and he fell asleep in his car seat on the way home) - swaddle, quick cuddle and shh-pat to help him drift off (as you advised marensmama), down in cot with a dummy for a while to help him suck off his excess energy. One of the reasons we haven't been putting him to bed upstairs is that we hadn't gotten an audio monitor and I didn't want to be confined upstairs, but the husband did his usual clever thing and installed his bluetooth receiver on the side of the cot and linked it up to the computerand  speakers downstairs so now we have   a home-made audio monitor - hurrah!

And he hasn't woken up at the 30-min mark at *any* of his naps today - he's done 1-1.5h, 1h, 2 HOURS (he did wake at 1h15min but a quick soothe sent him back to dreamland)! I am    His feeding times have also gone back to 3-hourly and his cues are easier to read because he's been much better-rested and less cranky today

Wow. We knew it was too bright downstairs really but marensmama, your advice was what gave me a kick up the bum to get something done about it and touch wood/fingers crossed/long may it continue etc., it seems to have worked a charm! Thank you ever so much, you are an absolute star 

I'm not so sure that pat/shh really works all that well for my l/o apart from when he's in full-on crying mode - in fact my husband too told me today that I was doing too much during his wind-down routine and overstimulating him instead, and that he thought that the l/o needed a quick and simple wind-down. We'll see how it goes.

I'm still worried about using a dummy to settle him but if shh-pat overstimulates/irritates him and I don't want to be carrying him around to get him to sleep I'm not sure what other options I have!

One quick and hopefully final question - I know this should probably be on the feeding boards but it's linked to his naps so here goes: I'm not sure whether to continue cluster feeding?? I know BW says to discontinue after 8 weeks, but I believe quite a few people on here have decided to continue with that because it works for them? Feeds today have been at 0840, 1140, 1450 and 1750 and he's just dropped off to sleep at 1920. If we were cluster feeding it seems to me that I'd have to wake him after a short catnap for his second cluster feed of the evening before bed - maybe at 2000? Should I instead let him sleep (assuming he does) until the 3h mark, feed at 2045 and then put him to bed for the night? Or should I take this as his having gone to bed for the night and try a dreamfeed at 2200 if he doesn't wake before then??

[marensmama]

Wow, great progress!!!!   So glad it's working out for you!!

So about the nap 'schedule' and feeds:  typically, LOs his age have 3 long naps (1.5 hrs each on average) plus a 45 minute catnap at the end of the day.  A sample routine would look like this:

7 E,A
8:30 S
10:00 E,A
11:30 S
1:00 E,A
2:30 S
4:00 E,A
5:15 catnap
6:00 wake, A
6:30 E
7:00 bedtime

If his last nap is too long and then you wake him just to feed, he may start having NWs.

RE: the paci - none of my girls took one, but addiction doesn't come into play until about 4-5 months, so don't worry about using it now, just keep an eye out for when it becomes a props issue (ie needs many replugs in the night).

HTH, and congrats on the great naps! 

[*Helen*]

So glad you had a good day!!! long may it continue!

It sounds like your dh is very tuned in, mine is like a fish out of water, good for playtimes but thats all bless him.

Henry and I have had another hellish day of little to no sleep, he's not really wanted to leave the bedroom, he's not cried he's just not slept. I wish I had a prop that would work just for a few days to get him over this. i'm starting to get worried about his development. Dh thinks I should chill and wait it out but thats easier said than done.

I have a pile of post it notes with sleep times,wake times oz's sunk in 24hrs etc...