I really need a plan, can anyone help??? quite long sorry!!

[RACHPEM]

Maya is now nearly 19months and if any of you ave read my previous posts know she is very spirited and very inconsistent.
Anyway I need some help with sleep training as I think this is the main contribution to her nw.  i have never been very strong when it comes to sleep training and now it is realy biting me in the butt. 
This is generally what happens every night for the last 19months with the occasional night where she sleeps through , however it does not seem to matter what time bedtime is what time naps are how long she sleeps etc.
After 4-5 hrs after going to bed she wakes normally about 12ish and can be awake anything from 1-3hrs!!!! she is normally very upset and I am literally held hostage to her needs.  About 3-4 months ago we had a similar situation and I did wi/wo which went quite well and within a few nights she was sleeping through and this lasted around a month.  Then no idea what happened , prob teeth, and she was waking all sorts of hours for ages , hysterical and waking earlier and earlier.  We tried wi/wo but it just got her moore and more hyper.  therin lies the problem, I took the notion of gradual withdrawal however I am still inb the same spot and she points to the chair I sit in for me to stay until she sleeps.  Again I know I have been weak but I was getting around 3-4 hrs of sleep a night and was exhauseted so prob took the easy option but now she has me wrapped round her little finger.
I just want to mention that generally if she wakes any other time including ealry in the morning she has been settling herself off to sleep it is just that 1st waking early doors. 
Now I am a little more rested due to the later lie ins I need a plan on how I can tackle this without my dd getting so upset it breaks my heart.
So if anyone can help me I would be forever grateful.
I have been trying to get her onto a routine of some sorts (alhtough I dont think it is a routine issue so much as me) and after recent bouts of Ot she is now sleeping 10.5-11hrs at night and 1.5-2hrs in the day but this is after the nw so even with those she is still getting enough sleep I think.(although last nt she only did 9.5hrs!!!!)
I have been consistent in her naptimes and bedtimes even though I have been confused over this whether I should stik to clock times or A times, we have been doing 12pm and bed 7pm but she is taking even longer to settle at night than ever.
I am sorry it is long and I guess I have gone off a a bit of a tangent as I think I need to tackle the nw dependancy issues 1st before the routine one but I need some advice on what I should do.
Please help me!!!
Rachael x

[skatty]

Hi Rachael, those long NWs you are talking about are almost definitely OT unless she is getting too much day sleep but it doesn't sound like it! The fact she is taking so long to settle for bed also sounds like she is OT by then, if she naps at 12-1.30pm then maybe 5½ hours is too long an A time before bed, perhaps 6.30pm may be better? Broken sleep due to NWs isn't so rejuvenating as STTN so even though she is getting 11 plus hours there probably isn't as much deep sleep as is ideal.

I know it is really upsetting to hear our LO's cry and I have a spirited DD myself and I know they have lots of stamina but if you really listen are you sure she is not angry rather than upset? I have also done the staying in the room and I think this can be very distracting for a spirited LO and WIWO is much better as you know. With Leorah we have to wait a bit longer for our WIWO, it is too stimultaing to go in and out every 10-20 secs so we wait 30-45 secs and if she stops crying and then starts again we time from when she started again, we have had a lot of success with it, she knows we will be consistant and there is no point in crying as we will come to her but wont stay. The best way to look at it is that you are doing the right thing by your DD by helping her sleep better so although not pleasant she will be much happier when she is getting a good nights sleep and so will you 

HTH Katt 

[RACHPEM]

Thanks Katt, I am not sure if she is upset or angry? she just does not like to be on her own she is the same in the day if left for 2 mins!!!! I have left wi/wo longer than 1 min at times and she just gets more and more worked up.  She is fine once I sit down then she is as quiet as a mouse but as soon as I egde to the door she is up on her feet crying loudly!!!  It prob is down to temper but regardless it has to stop.  She prob is also OT but even when she has took god naps and been in bed earlier she still wakes and wants me in that blinking chair!!!! I was unsure whether to buy that at the time, boy I have had my wear out of it lol!!!!
What else can i do?
Rachael x

[skatty]

I'm not sure what else you can do, if she settles quickly with you in the chair and goes back to sleep quickly then this can be the best solution but I know my DD will cry until we are in the room and then will chat and play and keep looking over to where we are etc which means she takes even longer to sleep  I can tell if my DD is angry or upset because when upset she sounds very scared, if it is a temper issue then I think you just have to be stubborn with WIWO but if it is genuine SA then maybe the best thing to do is chant "it will pass" in your head and plonk yourself in "the chair"  ! If the OT is over a period of time then a day or 2 of good naps and nights probably isn't enough to get her to come through it, we are having the same at the mo' and have good days and bad. I don't know if it is a coincidence but when I sprinkle lavender on her sheets about ½ an hour before we go to her room after her bath (door closed) she relaxes much better over her stories and doesn't have those OT cry outs in the first part of the night, in fact she doesn't even have NWs.

Here is something else I'd like to find more about myself. Have you heard of Hylands Teething tablets? They apparantly have another homeopathic remedy called Calms Forte for children, they melt on the tongue like the teething tablets and are meant to relax them so they can sleep. Has anyone heard of them? I am guessing you can only get them in the US, I am also guessing if they worked we would be hearing about them on these boards alot!

[RACHPEM]

I can be sitting in the chair ages, between 1-3 hrs!!!! plus I really can count on my hands how many nights she has slept through, I cant see me sitting on that chair forever, I need a solution, I can never sleep properly as I am always on edge as to when she will wake.   I think she is upset rather than angry as it does sound like a scared cry , but I am still pretty sure it is just because she is used to me sitting there until she falls asleep.
What is your take on "set time" or A times??? I am not sure what to offer.
Rachael x

[skatty]

Do you mean by the clock or A time? For me it is A time because Leorah doesn't have a regular wake up time and when I have woken her up at a certain time each day she starts to wake earlier. Saying that I have been going with a set 12 np time for about a week and have had varying degrees of success depending on how the night went, today she was awake at 6.40am and was down for her nap at 12 and woke after 1 hr15 mins (longest nap in ages) but cried her eyes out when she woke  Right now I am trying to work mout what her A time is before her nap, I'm going to try 5hrs tomorrow.

If you are in the chair a minimum of 1 hour but up to 3 I think you are going to have to brave it and do WIWO, it may take a few nights but you will get to the stage where you can both have a full nights sleep. Just remember you are not abandoning her, you are helping her to resettle herself and become fully independant with her sleep, you are meeting her needs but not becoming a slave to them. The first time we commited to WIWO I realised that I had been mistaking her cry for upset and it wasn't it was angry! It only took 3 times and now if she cries it only takes one and very occassionally 2 WIWOs or just shhh at the door. The other thing you can do is in the daytime when she can clearly see, move the chair further away but that could be a very long process, I would definitely bite the bullet and do WIWO. Do you live with a partner or can you ask a friend on relative around for the first night to help support you and keep you strong? The thought of sleep training is almost always worse than the actual event, my friend has a 20 month old who has never fallen asleep in her own bed, after 2 nights of screaming she then would settle in her own bed as long as her dad was in the room, I haven't spoken to her for a few weeks so I don't know how things are now but she says she wishes she did it a year ago! Even when your DD is upset just tell yourself you are giving her a great gift.

How long have these NWs been happening? The long waking after 4-5 hours happen to us when Leorah is very OT or OS, we've had a few recently as life has been hectic and her routine has been down the pan, after the first one we just let her get on with it but I cannot sleep listening to her toss and turn and talk away  They are caused by a chemical when OT in the body that keeps you from being able to stay asleep, I am prone to insomnia myself if I start burning the candle at both ends or more often now if leorah's sleep goes off track so does mine  It is hard to get out of OT when it is this severe, the only way we do it is with early bedtimes because there is no catching up with naps. I would definitely give the lavender oil a go both for yourself and DD, it is very effective for relaxing. Oh and one last Q, do you think the waking is habitual, if so maybe W2S may help 

[RACHPEM]

Cheers again Katt.  i do think the waking are habitual,(but just because she is used to me going in) as I mentioned earlier any other time she wakes apart from that first time she is a totally different child. The time can vary so much I think it would be hard to do w2s, as it can be from 10-2.30 nearly always after 4-5 hrs sleep.
I think you are right I am just going to have to get a little tougher when she wakes, my hubby will help and it prob wont bother him quite so much so I will have to rope him in.The nw have been almost sice birth, with a short recess about 3 months ago where we did do wi/wo and it worked almost immediately however she was much calmer then to how she gets now.  I am not sure what went wrong, she did have her canines come through so maybe that is where it started again.  We prob have ony had 2-3 wks in 19months where she has not had any nw's and now is the best ever really as she could be up3 hrs and start her day anything from 4am!!! so I gues I should not compain too much, but still I would love an interuppted night for mmore than 1 nt occasionally.
I also find in the day she has no problem faling asleep without me and most times bedtimes with the execption of last nt are fine it is just that waking after 4-5hrs??/
Thanks again for your support.
Rachael

[skatty]

I still think that long waking is due to OT, I don't know if anyone else reading this agrees I think the WIWO will work for you again and definitely get DH's support, men can be much more methodiacl and focused in these things  I can't imagine how hard it muct be for you having NWs since birth, you definitely deserve to have this solved now 

Katt x

[RACHPEM]

Cheers again Katt.  Well I do think the nw's are mainly down to OT, but having said that even when she is well rested we still get them although they are not so lenghty so I think alot is still just down to bad habits and AP.  Anyway last night she really was OT as she had only had 1 hr all day after the prev nt being pretty poor, that said she was in bed by 7pm (I was working and could not get her down any earlier) so she went 6hrs from the end of her nap and settled within mins.  We did have a nw at 8pm but she settled herself I think it was more of a grumble.  Then at 1.15 we had the full works!!! hubby and I both decided to do wi/wo she got herserlf pretty worked up but we kept at it, I know it just attention as once I was in the room she stopped crying and kept pointing to the "chair".  Anyway it took an hr but she slept til 6.45pm. It was really horrid and much worse than last time however I keep telling myself it is for the good and sanity of is all!!!
Rachael x
btw would you still stick to 12pm as nap time? as this would only be just over 5hrs.

[skatty]

Hi Rachael, well done on last night, you are really helping her even though it is so hard and seems so cruel. I think it is recommended that just one parent at atime does the WIWO so maybe you one night and DH the next, I hope tonight it will be even less time. As for the nap I have no idea what I am doing with Leorah but am going with a 5 hour A time myself today. A few months ago I would have put her down earlier if OT, maybe you could really watch her that last half an hour and if she seems to slow down get her down for her nap before she revs up again?

We also had some NWs last night as well, we never gave her meds before bed and she is teething, I think it shows that if we do it before bed she has a better rest than if she wakes up in the middle of the night. I definitely think you are right that the canines threw you off track, they are hard teeth and it seems the 2nd molars are too  I wonder if your DD's molars are moving into position 

I hope you get a good nap today, let us know how it goes. K x

[RACHPEM]

Hi Katt, we got a 2 hrs nap which was great!  I put Maya down at 12 and she slept til 13.55 so much better, however bedtime was another matter.  I aimed to get her in bed at 6.45 to hopefully fall asleep by 7pm, we had such a screaming match so now I am so confused??? is she OT UT or just SA that would not let her settle??? she eventually went off at 7.45pm but i dont know if I made her later by her getting hyped up or she needed nearly 6hrs pre bed??
Fingers crossed tonight is not too bad?
Rachaelx

[skatty]

Wow, a 2 hour nap is great  I have no idea why she cried at bedtime, I would have done the same A time or maybe 5hrs after a 2 hr nap, perhaps she was a little UT but because of the fussing she became OT by the time she should have dropped off  How was she in the night?

[RACHPEM]

Morning.  She woke at 12.30 and at first was just moaning rather than the crying she has done previously, I left her about 10 mins then we got more of a cry so i went in.  She has soiled her nappy so I changed her and put her back down she asked for milk, which I am not sure whther I should have given or not in fear that I am creating another habit? however she does not normally ask so I gave her some and she went back in her cot.  I did wi/wo for aroun 15 mins but she was so much calmer, and quieter with her crying, after 15 mins she stopped crying so I stayed out the room and she mumbled for about 15 mins and went to sleep until 7.15 this morning, yeah!!! So do you think I should still aim for bed after 5hrs regardless of nap length?? you don think she needs longer as she took so long to fall asleep?
Have a good day.
Rachael x

[RACHPEM]

Maya is still keeping me guessing! I suppose it will be like that forever right?  Yesterday she only slept an hour again and although I aimed for an earlier bedtime she did not settle until 7.30.  She woke again at 11.15pm and hubby did wi.wo but she was pretty hysterical again and took about 1hr to go off and was up at 6.30 this morning.  I had to work this morning so my mil had her and she did not take her nap until 1pm!!! she slept 40 mins and then she manged to get her back to sleep but only 40 mins.  Her nap did not actually end until 2.45pm but I took her to bed at 6.45 and she fell asleep at 7.10pm.  So hopefully the shorter A time this pm mght make up for some of the OT.  We are off to the zoo tommorrow so everything will prob all fall apart but Ithink we could all do with some time out from the whole sleeping thing!
Have a great weekend.
Rachaelx

[skatty]

Oh no Rachael, I am sorry things aren't getting better  It does sound like she is OT but it is almost imposible to get some LO's over that, as I know  I would stick with the WIWO but have you ruled out any pain from teeth or anything she could have? I didn't realise but Leorah had an ear infection which left fluid in both her ears at the start of all my troubles and I didn't even realise 

Have a great day at the zoo, hopefully it will make Maya very tired so she has a good night