Is this OT or UT?

[marensmama]

Here's hoping it's another good night!!  And love the avatar, btw, really sweet boys you have!

[luckylot]

Thanks Nicole!  So last night he went from 7:50pm-3:10am again!!  Then he woke at 4:30 to feed again for some reason, but then lasted until morning.

But here we are with morning nap problems yet again!  I can get him down within the 60 minute A timeframe and he just keeps jolting awake after 7-10 minutes of shut eye.  I try shhhing him, holding my hands on him the whole time, and just leaving him to figure it out, because it almost appears like he is irritated by me helping him.  Nothing works, he jolts awake, looks for his paci and his eyes pop wide open, then he starts looking frantic or nervous, twisting his head back and forth.  He does the same thing whether I try to help him or not.  This goes on until we are back into the OT stage again.  How do I prevent this?  Then I get frustrated and leave him with the pacifier in his mouth (which I HATE) and left him alone.  He fell asleep at some point (we then removed the paci), but I don't know when he fell asleep so I can't do the W2S at 30 and 45 min, I wouldn't know when to go up there and can't just sit up there through it all, because I have to feed a 3 year old.  Would it be so bad to hold him through his first naps of the morning, at least until he's asleep and then put him down?  It seems like this nap sets off the day.  When I held him all day yesterday, he just slept all day.  I know this would make me a prop and I certainly don't want that, but I don't know what else to do to prevent from truly going nuts.  I begin to lose patience after about 30 minutes of trying to get him to sleep, thinking about what my 3 year old is doing in the house without me.

Jessica

[luckylot]

Sure enough, he woke at what might have been between 30 and 45 minutes, but I can't be sure, it could possibly be at 45 minutes, if he fell asleep right after I left him awake but drowsy.  DH is up there trying to get him back to sleep now.  Considering he is still waking at the 30-45 minute mark, day in and day out, is this helping him accomplish anything at all?  I mean, is there any chance of him progressing past this point on his own or do we have to get this OT problem under control before we begin to see any progress in him?  I feel like I am barely staying above water with the amount of time, patience and effort this is taking every day.  I wish I could just wear him in a sling until he gets to a stage when he is working on daytime sleep, around 3-6 months.  Maybe I could try the upright carrier, he seems to like that better. hmmm  What do you think?

[cbald1976]

so glad that he is sleeping well thru the evening & into the morning.  That sounds like great progress for you.  As far as the naps go, i would say that he is still trying to work through the kinks with his new schedule.  He could still be catching up a bit from the OT that he was just several days ago.  You're efforts in getting him back to sleep after the 30-45 min mark sound good.  I think that he is probably on his way to fixing the OT problem with all that night sleep.  You should start to see progress with the new sleep routine in the next few days as he get more & more night time sleep. 

I regularly wore DS in a carrier when out & about during the day before 3 months old & found it to be a great way to ensure sleep when I had to go out during the nap time.  However, i don't have much experience with doing this all day long or day in day out.  For us, it was good here & there but i had to compensate the next day with longer naps & earlier bedtimes.  Seemed like he needed a bit more help after a day like that.  I might add that the paci (if it ensures he stays asleep) is not such a bad thing.  Really if you think about it, at least he's in his crib, putting himself back to sleep through the sleep cycles & it would be a small bit of AP that could be worked out.  Actually, my DS pulled his out of his mouth one day & never went back.  Chose his thumb instead & it's been a real blessing as he can self-soothe after a bump or just when sleepy.  Wearing him all day as a matter of course is a totally different route from what you've been trying to do up to this point.  So, if you'd like to head in that direction, i'm sure there are lots of BWs that could help figure out a way to do this comfortably.

Also-- wanted to let you know that i'll be away for about a week on vaca, so will def be looking forward to hearing how the week goes for you.  Sending you lots of sleepy vibes and hoping that things work out.  Have patience in the process.  He'll get there & you're doing a great job !!!! 

[samijoe]

Hi
I know these are very trying times.  Especially with another young one under foot and WANTING to know so badly, why your 'new' lo won't conform!  Ack.

I had an angel baby first go....her problem really was that she liked to add A time at the speed of light!  Often threw me for a loop, but THEN....because of this she taught me all about A times!

My little dude, was exact same only slightly touchier and grouchier.  He added A times very fast....

do you remember how long your first lo could stay awake for at 6/7wks??

my kids never conformed to recommended A times or nap lengths.

Your little guy sounds like he is trying to add A time....but half of him isn't quite ready.  Does he seem sorta conflicted---like, i want to sleep but can't??  Notice you mentioned he giggled himself out of it one day.....

A way to tell.....

a nap that ends at 45mins...generally means they could have stayed up longer.  BUT, since it was such a short nap, the following A time needs to be adjusted to avoid OT.

your little guy seems to have gotten ot (which i see someone has helped you with getting out of).....

waking at 30 or 40mins generally means ot.

waking at 1hr means nothing at all....so that one little waking was just incidental (only becomes a prob if consistently wakes up at 1hrs).

what i try to do through these times....once i realize my little dude is pulling off short naps, is shorten things up next time around and get him thru the day.  once you've caught the ot, wait for him to have a fairly good night and a good wakeup.

then begin pushing the  A time.

i entirely agree that life with two is made more difficult when number two doesn't like the car.  my little guy is now better, after switching up to a 3in1 seat, instead of his bucket.  crappy naps will happen, but just take them and make it back home to work on the next nap.

one thing i try to remember is messing up the first nap of the day is easiest.  then if all fails, i still have the whole day to get myself out of it.


hope that helps
sami

[samijoe]

oops just notice you posted more,

if he wakes at 45mins, assume that was it for nap...let him play it out in the crib until he seems to be getting upset.

adjust the following A time.  so if he normally stays awake for 1hrs, try to get him to nap around 45mins later. 

hopefully because you adjust the following A time, the next nap time will happen when he needs it to and he should nap longer.  after having a good nap of a good length, you can try for a full A time following.

if he short naps again, cut his A time again....until he actually sleeps a longer nap.

if you have to put him to bed early, do it.  early to be is always your best friend.


um  anything i forgot......

sami

[luckylot]

Wow Sami, thanks for all the detail!!  Yes, it DOES seem like he is conflicted, like he really wants to sleep (eyes start to shut) but I can't (he forces them to pop back open) and this repeats until he can't fight it anymore.  I have to keep his room VERY dark and quiet, he's SO nosy and easily distracted. 

I can't remember how long my first slept for at this age, because we didn't start sleep training until 4.5 months after the paci became a problem-prop.  We were probably doing everything wrong with him up to that point, lol!   

He typically wakes crying, so when he wakes at 45 minutes, he would be crying immediately.  When he's hungry, we all know it! ha ha ha  There was only one nap so far that he woke happily, oh wait TWO, woo hooooo!  ha ha

So the update since my last post is that I have been "wearing" him for the first morning naps to keep him asleep, today we walked to the park during that nap time (when I keep moving, he stays asleep).  He was seriously fighting the first nap of the day, so with this being the most difficult, I just decided to AP it for now.  Then, the rest of his naps have been going fairly well, for the most part.  Unfortunately, it's the paci that gets us there.  If I leave it in, he falls asleep on his own easily and stays asleep (it does fall out most of the time and that doesn't seem to bother him, we also don't need it during the night wakings usually, unless he is exceptionally gassy and in pain).  When he wakes at the 30 or 45 minute mark, it seems like often he is VERY gassy and just can't get back to sleep from pain.  I have eliminated all dairy products (not easy for me) and he seems to be better most days, hence sleeping better!  All day yesterday, he napped great, staying asleep through all of the naps!  Today he had one nap where he woke at 30 minutes and needed the paci back to calm, but he went RIGHT back to sleep.  Then he fussed again and went back to sleep on his own, without the paci.  So although it's not entirely perfect and I don't expect it to be, he has become a little more predictable and I hope by using the paci we aren't creating a problem, but he looks for it and it sooths him immediately.  I don't mind paci use, it can be taken away when fingers can't, I just don't want it to become a night problem ever. 

Another question...about night feedings.  I put him to bed after whatever feeding is after 7pm.  Since he really doesn't have much awake time at this stage, does bedTIME really matter?  We have a routine that we use for every time we put him in bed so essentially, every nap is like bedtime, ha ha ha.  The problem I am having is that he does not take a DF, he doesn't nurse well while asleep, so I have to wake him sometimes 9 or 10pm to make sure I am able to tank him up before bed.  What we do is co-sleep (with a snuggle nest in our bed so he is separate in a sense) and I take him from his crib into our room, change his diaper and then we lay down and nurse, I burp him, swaddle him and put him in his little bed.  He goes RIGHT to sleep.  Do you think this will work in place of a dream feed until he can nurse in his sleep...if he ever can?  Some nights this actually gets us all the way to 4:30am without another feeding!  Most nights it gets us to 2:30, so night sleep has been great!  I just want to make sure I am not creating a problem doing it this way.  If I didn't feed him past 7-8pm, I would be waking earlier at night. 

Jessica

[samijoe]

I never dreamfed my kids.  It seemed to wake them up way too much...we breastfed too and they just wouldn't do it.  Then, because i had to wake them so much...it completely threw off the night.

What about just waiting for lo to wake on their own?


sami


bedtime is soon.

[luckylot]

If I wait for him to wake after a 7pm feeding, we will be up three times a night rather than only two times.  I think I would rather have him start his night time sleep later at this point.  Getting a good night of sleep is what gets me through the days and I put that very high on my list of priorities, lol. 

So tonight, I had him IN BED in 45 minutes instead of an hour and he was SOOO wound up, he just didn't seem to want to sleep. It has already taken him 45 minutes (...and counting) to calm down evenenough to sleep.  DH went up there when he dropped the paci for the umpteenth time and came down saying, "He doesn't seem sleepy".  He seems to fall asleep at an hour and a half from his last waking most times and it looks like even though I got him in there earlier, it's going to be the same timing as usual, or later now.  Oh there he is again....DH is going up.  That is the other half of the batter, DH seems to think he just doesn't need as much sleep as I am trying to push, so I get exhausted trying to "debate" this with him.  He is willing to do whatever I think is right, but when he sees me this frustrated, he wants to find answers and the way he sees it, this isn't really working so there must be another answer, lol.

Jessica

[luckylot]

Another quick question - when reading through other people's posts, I am starting to question if I am doing the right thing.  I am assuming that if he wakes at the 30 minute mark during a nap (and getting him back to sleep), that means he is overtired, so should I be shortening his next A time by 15 minutes to prevent more OT or should I only shorten the A time if he has a short nap and gets up, like 45 minutes?

[samijoe]

Always shorten the A time following.

This is what i mean,

if my little guy sleeps for 1.5hrs, he can stay up for 3hrs.

if he naps for 1.25hrs, he can only stay awake for 2.75hrs.

if he naps for 45mins/1hr....he can stay up for 2.5hrs.

if he naps for 30mins, he can only stay up for 2hrs before getting ot.

Of course, this is just us.  At 7.5mths.   But you do have to be a bit conscientious about it, cuz an ot loved one may not show their tired cues effectively.

Does this help??


sami

[luckylot]

Well, I get the idea, but with a baby this young, he is already getting fed, burped, changed, and then we start wind down, so there isn't much opportunity for earlier naptimes.  I do try to move faster, but he seems to feel the "rush" and acts anxious when I do that.

This morning he was awake a lot (restless) between his 5am feeding and when I fed him again at 7:30.  So after the 7:30 feeding, I put him right back to bed, he fell asleep quickly, but then woke at 45 minutes.  I tried to get him back to sleep for a bit, but he was soooo mad even with the paci in, which is unusual for him, so I got him up and he was happy and content, smiling at me and giggling at nothing.  He sat happily in his bouncy seat with his lovey looking around in amazement.  I noticed that he is much more alert and looking around a ton when I am walking through the house with him. 

[luckylot]

Also, how do you recommend I handle his restless sleep from the 4-5am feeding until the next feeding at about 6-7am?  I think his restlessness is cause for starting every day OT!!!  I can't break this cycle...

[luckylot]

Since yesterday's post, I took DS with me to a doctor appointment, then we went to Target, all during naptime.  He dozed off and on in the car seat and I thought for sure this would mess up his sleeping even more, but when we got home, he went RIGHT to sleep and stayed asleep!  Since then he has been going down for his naps easily and staying asleep until the next feeding time!  Last night he even lasted longer before he needed to nurse and went back to sleep easily.  He's still fidgety after his early morning feeding though.  Not sure what that is about!

I hope this isn't a fluke and that it's a sign that better days are ahead.

Jessica

[luckylot]

Question about W2S.  If I go up just before 30 minutes, when I know he is OT, does turning him from one side to the other qualify for this?  He stirred and went back to sleep...

Jessica