new to the routine and short naps are really confusing me!!!

[harrietevie]

hello - I am new to this so please bear with me!
my little darling is 9.5 weeks old and we started EASY last week. It seems to be going ok and i can get her to sleep using sh - pat and today actually got her down for a nap without using it - whoopee!! BUT: she only naps for 45 mins, i try to put her back off but she screams so hard the only way to calm her down is to get her up but then she is grouchy and whingy so I know she is still tired. I then keep her up until her next feed and then watch for the signs which is usually about 20 mins after feeding and so it all starts again. The problem is that I reckon she is OT which is why she won't nap for long but what do I do when she wakes after 45 mins? I have tried w2s today but am not sure if I'm doing it right - please help - also any ideas on how I should tweak her routine as I'm finding by the time we get to the 3 hours after feed she won't feed properly because she is OT - aaaarghhh - I'm confused!
Today it went like this (just to put it in black and white)
5.30am - E
6.00am - A (tried to put her off to sleep straight after E but she was wide awake!)
7.45am - S
7.45am - Y (I slept too!)
8.30am - E
9.00am - A
10.00am - S
10.45am - A
11.30am - E (very fussy - off and on the breast)
12.10am - A
12.30pm - S
13.10pm - A
2.30pm - E
3.00pm - A
4.00pm - S (fell asleep in the car as I had to run an errand)
4.30pm - A (Woke early as I transferred from car)
5.10pm - E (tried to feed as she was really grizzly- she fussed a lot on the breast and was off and on which is why I fed for longer)
6.15pm - A
7.30pm - S (we shall see how long it lasts!!)
You can see I have A's where I shouldn't but I don't know what to do to change it!

Once she is asleep at night she generally sleeps waking at around 2am and 5am for feeds, however I have to put her back off after the first 45mins. Last night I managed to do it by going to her the minute I heard her stirring and sh-patted her back off. On previous nights I'm afraid I have fed her to sleep and then let her fall asleep on me before rolling her into bed.

Please let me know any thoughts you may have - I would be very keen to hear!!

Thanks

Harriet and Evie

[deckchariot]

welcome to BW!!!  And congrats on your new bub!!  Well done on starting EASY and using pat/shh - that will serve you well for a long time!!  First off, let me just say that it's really hard when your lo is so little.  Babies brains sort out day and night sleep differently.  Night sleep comes first (0-3 mos) and day sleep later (3-6 mos), so it's really common for babies to have sleeping issues at this age.

That said, establishing a good routine and using pat/shh will certainly help.  Generally, 45 min naps would indicate undertired, but she seems actually to be on the high end of A time for her age.   Most bubs don't make 1.5 hrs til they are 3 mos.  And it looks like first thing in the am, she was up from 5:30 - 7:45?  That's really really long for a 9.5 week old.  Most 2 mo are doing 1 hr 15 - 1 hr 20.  So I'd try to shorten up that very first A time to just over a hour (if you can't get her right back to sleep, I'm guessing you don't really want to start your day at 5:30!), and keep the rest of them right around 1 hr 15. 

Waking at 45 min also can mean that she hasn't figured out how to make it past the transition from one sleep cycle to the next.  Is she swaddled?  That will certainly help.  Then, using w2s or some variation of it will also help.  When we did w2s, we'd go in about 15 min before I thought she'd wake.  Then I'd just watch to see what happened when she started to wake - I did that for the first couple days.  Then I'd go in about 10 min early, watch her, and when I started to see signs that she was beginning to stir, I'd put one hand on her arms and one on her legs, to "hold" her through the jolts.  If she continued to stir, I'd start shhhhhhhhhing and if she continued to stir, I'd start patting.  I had success about half the time - but even with that, after 2 weeks, she was able to do it on her own.  I also had my eyes closed the whole time - I didn't want to accidentally make eye contact with her.  I found it actually helped me to be more in tune with what she was doing.

Hang in there!!  This is a rough time, but the sleep training you do now will pay off for a long time to come!!!!

hth
michelle

[harrietevie]

Thanks Michelle!
I tried what you said about holding her through the jolts and it worked! I got 1.5 hours!! Also I managed to get her off to sleep when we were out to breakfast - she only did 45 mins but still I got her to sleep in a public place!!
However we had a real struggle with the nap this afternoon - it took me half an hour to get her to sleep - I went right back to basics and she went off eventually. . .
Thank you so much for your help, I feel much more confident now and determined to carry on!

Harriet & Evie x

[deckchariot]

YAY for some success!!!!  It's just really hard at this age, but if you continue to be consistent, she will get it (and you'll be so glad for the time you've invested now!!).  Keep me posted as to how you get on - there's lots of moms here on the boards who've been exactly where you are!!!

[harrietevie]

Hi,
Well some success with naps yesterday but had a nightmare with bedtime. It took us 1.5 hours to get her to sleep! When we did finally get her off I then "held her through her jolts" at 9.45 and noticed she wasn't really dropping into a deep sleep. I left her and she seemed to stay asleep. I then gave her a dream feed at 11pm and then had to "hold her through her jolts" to get her back off (she normally doesn't even wake up for the dream feed) and then our night began - my god! We haven't had a night like that since before we started EASY!! it's almost like she's forgotten everything we've taught her! She woke at 12.30am (sh'd her back off), 1.30 (fed her and then we fell asleep with her on my chest(whoops...)), 3.45 (tried to shh her back off but to no avail so fed her at 4.30, held her on my chest as she was pretty worked up, tried to shh her but again with no luck so fed her again at 6am (running out of ideas at this point!) finally got her back to sleep at 6.20am on me again) she woke again at 7am and so we started the day.
She is not a happy baby today (no surprise really with the lack of sleep in the night!) So far it goes like this:
7am - E (not very well - very fussy)
7.30 - A
8.30am - S (took half an hour to get her off)
She woke at 9.10am after we tried the "hold through the jolts thing" and so I fed her at 9.30 to avoid a too long A time before the S (is this the right thing to do?). She didn't feed that well but not too bad and then I put her down for a nap at 10.15 it took me 15 minutes and whereas this time yesterday I was able to sing her off with a lullaby, since her 2pm nap yesterday I have had to use sh/pat again and sh so loudly I'm going hoarse! She then woke again at 11.40 and I was unable to get her back off. We got her up (the only the way to stop her screaming!) and then tried to put her back to sleep again - she went off for about 10 mins and then woke up again!!
We do swaddle her and spend about 5 - 10 mins on wind down when we see the first signs of tiredness.
It really feels like we are right back to square one!! Any clues?

Thanks for your feedback! 
Harriet & Evie x

[deckchariot]

I'm guessing it may just be normal regression - most moms see some regression when they start sleep training.  I think you're doing the right things (feeding her early rather than extending her A time with a short nap).  Whenever you can't extend her nap, go ahead and get her up, feed her (most likely it will be earlier than her usual 3 hrs) and then right back to sleep.  Because she didn't have a long nap, she won't be well rested enough to make it her usual A time.

No doubt today was rough because the night was rough.  Did you change your night routine because of the nap sleep training?  If she was doing ok without any holding through the jolts at night, I'd go back to whatever you were doing at night.  Babies view day and night sleep differently, so she may not need the same stuff for night that she needs for day. 

Its also possible that last night was a one off for whatever reason.  I would simply keep being consistent.  She really will get it (though there will still be rough times along the way).  And after a night like that, try to get some sleep when she does. 

It may not feel like it, but I really do think you're doing a fabulous job.  I wish the results were more immediate!!!

How is today going?

[harrietevie]

Hi Michelle,
It's a good job I discovered this forum otherwise I reckon I would have given up by now!
We had another bad night! Our routine for bedtime before EASY was basically me feed her until she fell asleep and then keep her on me until I was sure she was off and then roll her onto the bed. Sometimes she would be off by 9pm, sometimes she would be off by 11pm and she would always wake for her feeds around 2 and 5. Wow reading that now makes me think - what the hell were we doing!!
So now with EASY we try and get her to bed around 7.30 but she always wakes around 45 mins of going down, however the night before last I managed to get her back off and she then slept OK.
I think you're right and it's just regression - we'll keep at it although I feel like my entire day(&night!) at the moment is spent trying to get Evie to sleep - pretty exhausting - thank god I have a great husband who helps me out!
How long does regression last? 
hope all good with you

Harrietx

[deckchariot]

Oh Harriet - I would have given up many times were it not for my BW board friends   I hated the hours spent sleep training (when I was doing it)....but I look back on it now and I'm so glad I did it!!

If it is regression, usually it's 2-4 days......hang in there!!!!

If you were letting her fall asleep on your for nighttime and naps and now you're not for either, it's completely normal to see regression.  Consistency is your best friend.  Knowing that it's the 45 min hump (even at bedtime), and how you used to get her to sleep, really does indicate to me that if you keep at it with shh/pat and/or w2s and holding through the jolts, she will get it, and you will get some rest   Think of it this way, if you keep rocking/feeding her to sleep, she'll go to sleep, but you're still "hostage" until you're sure it's safe to put her in her bed, and at some point, you'll have to break her of that habit (do you really want to be rocking your 25 - 30 lb toddler to sleep?) and it will be much, much worse then.  So what you're doing now is better for you and for Evie in the long run.  I know it's unbelievably hard in the short run.  You can do this!!!!!

If you need a break, we would "break" the rules for the last nap (catnap) before bedtime - we'd use the stroller or the swing or rocking - just to get her a good nap and give our backs and voices a break from all that shh/pat in the crib.  Plus, I wanted her as rested as possible at bedtime to give us the best shot there!

It's great that dh is so helpful - that will save your sanity!!!  I think you're doing a great job.  If it's not getting better by tomorrow, let's re-visit your EASY routine and see what we can find.  Hang in there!!!!

[harrietevie]

Hi
Thanks for your reply
So after a 3rd bad night we were all feeling pretty bad but still stuck at it yesterday. I found Evie napped Ok in the morning although I had no success with w2s but then for the afternoon her naps were very fitful and lasted only 30mins each. Bedtime was hard but we managed to get her to sleep by 8. We stayed with her until 8.45 and she slept until just before 10 when I did a dreamfeed, she then stirred again at 10.30 but went off quite easily with me holding her legs and shhhing. Then the night began. She woke at 12.45 so I fed her and then as we were all so exhausted I let her fall asleep on me which she did and slept until 4am - I fed her again and let her fall asleep on me again (I know I know this is probably going to make it harder but we were so desperate for some sleep!) she slept till 5.30 so I fed her again and then she slept till 8am!!
So at least I feel a bit more rested today - I am interested to see how today goes after last night - I'll keep you posted!
Have a good day x

[harrietevie]

Right as today is going worse than ever and find myself constantly in tears I thought I would ask a few questions!
To get Evie to sleep for naps I do the following:
Notice she is tired and get up and take a walk around the house. Then we go into the bedroom and close the curtain and the door all the time I am singing to her at at this stage she is pretty calm. I then sit down with her and keep singing and she stays fairly calm - maybe a bit grizzly but seems wide awake. after about 3 to 5 mins of sitting and singing I swaddle her at which point she starts to scream, I then pick her up and start shh/pat. I have to shh really loudly so that it feels like I'm shouting to get her to stop screaming and eventually calm down, I then put her in her moses basket and keep shhhing until her eyes close and she relaxes. Then I wait with her for up to 15 mins to make sure she is asleep (today she has been waking at 30 mins so I have missed the w2s window) At bedtime we do a massage and a bath and then I give her her final feed and then take her to the bedroom and follow the same process as at naptime. Bedtime is much harder than nap time with us having to stop, take her out of the swaddle and the room and then start again, sometimes up to 4 times and usually takes us at least an hour to get her to sleep. She sleeps in our bed at bedtime and in her moses basket at nap time. I wonder am I doing something wrong as it doesn't seem to be getting any better - I know I slipped a little last night but I still 'put' her to bed in the normal way - is it possible that what I did last night has ruined everything? Although I have to say getting her to nap today is just as hard as it was yesterday - not any harder or easier!
The difficult thing is that I'm exhausted and dread putting her to sleep - I'm also starting to resent her cos she seems to resist sleep so much. And that's really hard when I know it's not her fault.
I am truely understanding how people let their babies CIO, not that I'll do that - yet.
I have tweaked her EASY routine to the following as I wanted to reduce the A time but not the time between E too much. Here's how it looks so far today:
8am - E
8.30 - A
9.30 - S (took 15 mins so actually 9.45 then she woke at 10.20)
10.30 - E
11 - A
11.30 - S (took 30 mins so actually 12 then she woke at 12.30)
13.15 - E

Please can you tell me what I'm doing wrong as I'm losing the will to live here!!

Thanks for all your help and support

Harriet & Evie

[deckchariot]

Oh Harriet....I'm soooooooooooo sorry things are not improving for you.  BIG HUGS!!  Don't give up!!!!  Thanks for the detail on exactly how you go about putting her down, looking at that and looking again at your routine, I'm wondering if she is indeed OT (despite the 45 min nap thing).  Screaming during the wind down, and the fact that you often re-start the winddown at bedtime because she so worked up, really looks like overtired.  Also, I'm wondering if you know what temperament she is?  Some babies need a super short wind down, and I'm wondering is Evie might like that better.

So let's see.....(sometimes it really is about trial and error).  What if you shortened her A time?  Most 2 mos are doing 1 hr 15 - 1 hr 20 - and that includes the time it takes to fall asleep.  So if she's up at 8,  if you start your winddown around 9 - aiming to have her in the crib by 9:10 or 9:15 at the latest.  It looks like your'e doing shh/pat exactly right - starting it with you and continuing it in the crib til she's asleep.  I'd keep doing exactly that.  If her nap is less than an hour, and you cannot extend it (I'd only try for 20-30 min to extend at most), get her up, do some low key A time til she's hungry, then feed her, give her maybe 10 min to settle her tummy, then start her winddown for the next nap (don't try to get 1 hr 15 of A time). 

Don't worry about the APing you did last night - one night will not at all ruin the work you've done.  Sometimes we just need some sleep to be able to face the next day.  I so wish I could tell you it will be better tomorrow - but I can help you hang in there til it is better!!

How are her naps today?

[harrietevie]

Thanks for your reply, her naps today where super short - I think we got 37 mins max! Then for her final nap I took her out in the sling and she slept for 40 mins. I'm sure you're right with the OT thing - it's just so hard as I don't seem to have time to do anything other than feed her and try and get her to sleep!! I will keep trying - hopefully it will click for her soon and I can start getting some rest! Now I have to go and hold her through her bedtime jolts - wish me luck!

[deckchariot]

good luck!!!!  I so hope the night went better for you!  We almost always did the last nap in some other fashion - I just needed the break!  She really will get it.  I know it's hard.  Does dh give you a break when he can?  We were really fortunate, dh worked from home and my mom was here, so we had 3 folks helping.  It's really hard, and does seem like all you do is feed her and try to get her to sleep.  I was sooooooooo there.  But now, looking back, it really was worth it, and as awful as it was, it was really a very small portion of her life (and she's not even that old), so I'm glad I did it (and everyone can remind of that when/if we have another!).

Hang in there!!!!  See what happens if you shorten up that A time a bit.  You're doing great!!!!!!

[harrietevie]

Well today has been a little bit better and last night she slept 8.30 thru to 2.30 (dreamfeed at 10.30) then fed and went back to sleep till 4.30, I then managed to get another hour before I fed her and then she went back to sleep for another hour so the nights do seem to be improving.
Today she went down for her naps a bit better (less crying) and this afternoon I managed to get her past the 45 min mark although she woke at 1hour and 10. I found that she started jolting at around 30 mins and I started holding her then she had this massive jolt which flicked her eyes open, I immediately turned her on her side and started sh/pat which worked after about 5 mins, she then settled down for a few minutes only for it to happen again, it happened 3 times by which time I though that it had been an hour and I would leave her to see how she got on (and so I could have some lunch!) she woke up 10mins later.. ah well I guess it's progress of sorts!
Bedtime does seem to be a bit of a nightmare! She always screams and it always takes us about 20 mins to get her calm but once we get her to sleep she tends to sleep pretty well, we're going to try leaving her to get through her jolts on her own tomorrow - that's definitely progress!!
dh is a great help although we find that Evie gets very upset if daddy tries to put her to bed, it always ends up in me taking her and shhing her off. He does all the same things as me and she's really calm with him until he starts the wind down routine and then she get's really upset - last night she screamed so hard it almost made me cry! Any ideas on this?
Thanks so much for your kind words, your support is really helping us through this difficult time!

[deckchariot]

I'm glad you're starting to seem some improvement - it's just really hard at this age!  Its so tempting to give in and just rock to sleep (believe, I know....) but you are doing the right thing.  In terms of her crying when dh does the routine - have you tried having both of you together a few times?  I'm wondering if it's more your absence than his presence.  If you stay while he does the routine, that might help.  Dh and I did that, in fact, we still do it together, we just got so used to it.  Once he's got her calm and in the crib, then you can head out - and then gradually leave earlier and see how she responds.

I'm guessing bedtime is more of a challenge because she's OT from short naps - so maybe even move her bedtime a bit earlier til you start getting some longer naps.  Though 1 hr 10 is a HUGE improvement!!!  You are doing great and she is getting it!!!  She really is!!  I'm here for you !!!!