I am so desperate, can someone help me?

[nike]

Hi again Rachael.  I don't know if you remember me but we "chatted" a while back on another of your threads.  I'm so very sorry to hear things haven't improved for you since then with Maya's EW

Could you just refresh my memory as to how old Maya is? 

I have a couple of quns if you wouldn't mind.  You may or may not have posted this before - and I'm sure you would have already considered this - but what is the situation in her room around EW time?  Is there a sharp temperature drop in the early morning such as would cause her to wake, or do the birds start up then?  Does she have a darkened room?  Does she have a dummy, is she a thumbsucker or comfort item girl?  Does she have a bottle of milk before bed or at the EW time?  Does she want to eat immediately upon waking?  How does she eat during the day and particularly at dinner time?  When she wakes, how long do you leave her to potentially resettle?

I did think that Maya's bedtime was possibly too late, considering the EW and short day nap.  Although I recognise they're all different, just to give you an example, DS2 is nearly 21 months and his A time before his nap is roughly 5 hours and even after a 2 hour nap (12 to 2 approx) he's almost begging for bed by 6.30.  I just cannot stretch him out any longer - but he does display very clearcut tired signs.  He has developmental delay and does not speak as yet, but he will nod "yes" to the qun "do you want to go to bed?"  Bless him!  He even points to his cot when I'm giving him a final cuddle, as if to say "just let me be, I want to go to sleep".  I almost certainly think the longer it takes her to fall asleep at night, the more OT she is.  And of course we all know an EW is a classic sign of overtiredness.  It can also be a sign that the first nap of the day is too early - which I know is a catch 22 with an EW. 

Unless she is sick, if you have had Maya on one nap a day for a while now, I personally wouldn't go back to giving her two.  IMHO, I think it would be a step backwards.  Her internal body clock needs to know it's only getting one nap a day to extend that nap, IMO. 

I would also try working on the 12 hour day principle, ie bedtime roughly 12 hours after waking, especially with a shortened nap.  Now, I do realise some mornings she's waking at 4.30 and it would be ludicrous to make 4.30 p.m. her bedtime, but I would try and make bedtime as early as possible to combat OT. 

Also, it would be helpful to know her demeanour later in the day.  Does her behaviour change, is she irritable and whingey?  Does she merely pick at dinner?  If I saw a couple of yawns later in the afternoon, I'd be putting her to bed soon thereafter. 

In my experience, I would also find if either of my boys woke super early and not resettle themselves (I'd always leave them at least 20 mins and definitely listen for the type of cry/whinge) then I'd have a much better chance of resettling at say 3.30 a.m. than 4.30 - it's like still dead of night, rather than early morning iykwim.  So if you're worried an earlier bedtime might mean an earlier start to the day, based on her track record of 10.5 hours overnight, I should think you'd have more success getting her back to sleep then rather than >4.30.  Just a thought.

Can I also ask what happens for her day nap?  Actually, it might be helpful to go back a bit before then.  Does she have a decent morning tea snack?  Why I ask is that when my youngest was making that transition from 2 to 1 naps, he would get really sleepy around what would normally be his first nap time.  It's like his body was so programmed to being ready for sleep around 9 a.m.  I would make this snack time - give him a hearty snack and big drink.  As well as being a distraction, it really did perk him up a bit.  Just something you could try.  That's when I'd also engage in something stimulating with him, like getting out in the fresh air.  Speaking of, does Maya get much outdoor time?  Why I ask is that there have been studies done showing that kids who get a decent amount of exposure to sunlight during the day sleep better at night. Something about melatonin (sp?) levels.

I think I've pretty much exhausted what I had to say, except to tell you that one of the best purchases we ever made was a video monitor.  You may or may not already have one.  We don't use the volume (turn that right off!) but it is fantastic for checking on your lo when they cry out at night.  Sometimes DS wakes (dream?) and will cry or scream briefly, or sometimes even he'll just moan and whinge for what seems like an eternity.  Often times when I look at the monitor he's not even moving a muscle!  Of course if he's sitting up in his cot or got an arm or leg stuck through the bars, I know I'm needed then!  It truly is the best investment we've made.  It might be something that will help give you peace of mind when Maya wakes early - to see what she's actually doing when she wakes, whether she's thrashing around or seems to be just calling out in her sleep.  It is possible by going in to her too early that you might be fully waking her up from what's merely a normal partial awakening.  I think you're also more likely to leave them in there for a little longer if you can see that they're actually ok.  It's when you can't see them that your mind starts questioning whether they're alright, don't you think?  I bought ours off ebay and can send you the link if you're interested.

Anyway, just wanted to let you know that I think of you often and that I know you must be tearing your hair out trying to hit upon a routine that works for Maya and your family.  It must be so exhausting to have to focus so hard on something that should be so natural and easy - sleep!!  But you will get there!

I think I did mention on another thread about consistency too.  If you're trying a btc routine, give it a good go, like a week or two.  Give it a chance to actually work.  You may be surprised!  Hope all that helps xo

[bethanys mummy]

Hi Rachel

just want to let you know I am still here! We have had a period of NWs (teeth? who knows) and this has led to a OT phase and a bit of overdependancy on us so we are back to WIWO. Did not think we would be abck to this mess again but hey ho!!

Have to say allot of what has happened has made me think of you. The reluctance to go back to sleep, naps reducing, EWs (we could have swapped posts at 5am!) so I am still of the thought that a combination of BW type sleep training and dealing with OT will help you but it is really hard to advise what to do next. Nike give some great support and advice!!

(could you let me know the link re monitors on ebay think I would like one!!)

But also glad to hear you are having some time off from sleep duty, you really deserve it and hope went well.

Will post again soon (if not asleep!)
E x

[RACHPEM]

Will reply in full later when I have no toddler keep pushing key board! but in a nutshell last night we were out for my dads birthday and had to take maya with us, needless to say bedtime was late at 9pm, she woke at 5.18 (her magic time the last 2-3 days) I did manage to get her back off after 40mins or so and she slept a while longer but still only 10hrs in total!!!
Rachael x

[Vicku]

Hi Rachael!
Just want to say I'm still here too following your progress. Glad you've got some really good advice and support and hope things will stabilise soon so you decide which route to stick with.
Lots of love, have a good Sunday and get some rest in for yourself!
xxxxxxx Vicku

[RACHPEM]

Just wanted to add we got a long nap today just over 1.40 but tbh she has had short naps and short nights for days now so prob shattered.
Hi Nike, thanks for thinking of me.  I have literally looked at all things that may be keeping maya awake at that time and failed miserably it can range anywhere from 4.30-5.18 alrthough it has been the later for a few days now.
She has justg turned 20 months, her room is so dark so I know it is not the light, room is quite warm, I have just started putting her higher tog sleeping bag on incase this was the case, no difference though.  She has a dummy and a comforter, although it does not make a difference if I give it her back as she still wont settle, plus previously I would hear her wake and she would resettle herself so no idea what has started this.
Maya did go through a lovely stage where she asked for bed but that soon changed.  I am reluctant to go back to 2 naps as she wants her 1st nap so early that our day is just shifting earlier anyway and I dont want her to think she can wake early so she can rest a short while later.
i have startted giving her a morning snack before she takes her nap to keep her going, and she gets a decent amount of fresh air, although at the mo the weather has been so bad we have not been out as much although I still have not noticed it being anybetter if we are out/in have lots going on or not!
I also do leave her 15 mins or so before going in but she shows no sign of giving up and finally we tried btc for 2 weeks but no change, although I might try again but not so late with everything as the A times were so long we have ended up in Ot land big time.
I hope I have answered most of your questions, and thanks again for thinking of me.
Take care and if you think of anything else please let me know.
Rachael x

[nike]

Hi Rachael.  With Maya being 20 months now, then I definitely wouldn't go back to 2 naps.

You mentioned giving her a "small snack" before she has her nap, which I assume would be her one and only day nap?  Do you think giving her an early lunch or something more subtantial than just a snack might mean she will sleep a bit longer with a fuller tummy?  Can you post your routine with snacks and meals included?  I usually feed the boys lunch around 11.30 a.m. with a view to having DS2 in bed by 12 p.m.  Morning tea is generally around 9.30-ish but my guys are big snackers, so they usually have 11ses as well  

What sort of eater in general is she?  It's a long shot, but could it be possible she's waking early from being hungry?  That's why I asked in my last reply how she eats, particularly the evening meal, and whether she wants food immediately upon waking.  If she does wake at, say, 4.30 a.m. can you tell me what your routine is then?  Do you get her up and go straight into breakfast, a milk drink, play, what?  Have you tried just giving her a little sip of water in case it's just thirst and then resettling back to sleep?

Another thought:  is she still in a cot by any chance?  Not wanting to complicate things even more but some people do seem to have success with changing sleeping patterns when they put their lo into a bed. 

On a day when she's up super early and takes a short nap, have you ever tried a really early bedtime of like 6 p.m.?  Just wondering if it's worth seeing how she goes with a much earlier bedtime and trialing that for a while, helping her catch up on some sleep.  She's waking early anyhow, so even if she wakes at the same time but is getting an extra hour from the earlier bedtime, that's already an hour she's caught up on iykwim. 

I don't know how hectic your lifestyle is, or even whether you work or she's in daycare or not, but it might also be worth having a couple of "home days" to try and get into a bit of a routine.  Have a really stimulating morning, weather permitting of course, and definitely no trips in the car during which she might fall asleep and put everything out.  A couple of snacks during the morning when she starts getting weary, lots of drinks of water, a substantial early lunch with or without a milk drink, and then a good wind-down before her nap.  Hopefully then she might take a longer nap which will push the day out a bit - still aiming for an early bedtime.  She has a lot of catching up to do!!

FWIW (again recognising they're all different) this is our routine.  DS is 21 months:

6.30-7:  wake, water or diluted juice in sippy
7.30: breakfast
9:  go out, run earrands, playgroup, baby gym, shopping, whatever
9.30 - 10.30: morning tea usually whilst out
11.30 (closer to 11 if he wakes earlier): lunch, quiet play while I clean up which gives him a chance to do his poo!
12.00: nap
2.30-3: wake and drink, play
3.30: afternoon tea, play
5 - 5.15: dinner, dessert, play
6:  bath
6.30: bottle
6.45: bed

He is usually cactus by bedtime and asleep within 5 minutes.

Just out of curiosity, when she took the 1.40 nap (which is fantastic!) did you put her to bed later by any chance?  I think some ppl do fall into the trap of thinking that they had a longer day nap and therefore won't be ready for bed at normal time.  In her case it sounds as though she might need to have a permanent earlier bedtime, perhaps 6.30 or however early you can manage.  A btc routine has always worked with my boys.  I've had my mother visiting recently and several times after lunch she's said to me "There's no way that boy is going to go to sleep - look at him, he's full of beans", which he might appear to be, but I know he will always take a good nap around midday.  I literally tell him it's sleepy time, give him his sooky blanket, take him into his room, change his nappy and pop him into bed.  It might just be a question of hitting upon Maya's magic nap/bedtime, iykwim.

Anyway, just some things to think of.  Good luck!

[RACHPEM]

Hi again.  Well we got a 6am start today, yay!!! i think this was down to shorter A times and the fact she is knackered.  On sat nt she went to bed at 9pm woke at 5.18 got her back to sleep after approx 40 mins and slept til 7.40 so i could push nap out a little at 1pm she slept 1.40 and i put her to bed at 7.30 and she fell straight to sleep.  Obviously if it is downto A times then with a 6am start i cant see how i can push day out but at least she has had more sleep overall, however that said the little she has haad recently it makes sense.
When Maya wakes early we dont leave room til 6am at the earliest so she never has milk until after that and breakfast about 1hr after.  She is not the best eater and lunch is her worst meal of the day alhtough her weight is on target.
As regards to our days we have a good balance really we tend to do evrything round her naps as I am so obssesed with her getting one so if we go out we are bback for nap time and the same for pm activity we make sure we are back to stick to our routine.  Very occasionally we take a break from it and once in a while we will take a day out where she just has to sleep on the go but as i say very rare.
Thanks again Nike for your support.
Rachael x

[nike]

Just quickly Rachael -

slept til 7.40 so i could push nap out a little at 1pm she slept 1.40 and i put her to bed at 7.30

Like I was saying about falling into the trap of thinking a later wake-up means later nap, and longer nap means later bedtime - considering Maya's history of OT and EW, I would have put her down by 12 p.m. at the latest for the nap, hoping she gives a longer nap due to not being so OT, and then bed by 6.30 p.m. again at the latest.  IMO, 1 p.m. and 7.30 p.m. are too late for both nap and bedtime.  WDYT?

[RACHPEM]

Hi Nike, I actually agree with you but my hubby takes Maya to church on a sunday morning and he could not get back any earlier this wk as he had to drop his cousin off at football practice so it was unaavoidable yesterday.  Btw I have put her down at 11.30 for her nap as she was so tired this morning, what do you think I should do re naps and bedtime? I am just so worried that she may only need 10hrs at night and therefore a 6.30 bedtime will mean we are back to 4.30 again.
Rachaelx

[RACHPEM]

Btw awake at 12.50 so only 1hr 20mins!!!!

[becky1969]

RACHPEM -- it sounds like even with a 7:30 bedtime you're getting a 5 am latest waking, right?  I think I would be inclined to try a REALLY early bedtime and see what happens.  Just mentally prepare yourself for a very EW, and then you may be surprised if she sleeps a bit longer.  Your child just sounds soooooo tired.  My son always does 10 hour nights when he's OT. I think you are in a chronic OT cycle.  I really really do.  Is there any way you could have your mom come over and take that 4:30 am waking for you if you put her down extra early (even 6 pm would be good!)?  Maybe if you knew no matter what YOU get to sleep in, then you could take the leap of faith and put her down extra early for bed, just as an experiment to see what happens.

[RACHPEM]

Hi Becky I am so glad you answered I was a little unsure of what to do tonight.  Maya did sleep til 6am this morning with a 7,30 bedtime but like I said not sure if that is just because she is shattered as she has hardly had any sleep over the last few days/nights. My mom passed away last year so i dont have anyone who can help out apart from my mil but she works she prob would have her at the weekend though.  So you would go for 6pm? she is already tired and has been since about 3ish!
Rachael x

[nike]

I'm sorry I wasn't able to hop back on the PC last night.  Rachael, did you give Maya a 7.30 p.m. bedtime after the 1 hr 20 nap?

she is already tired and has been since about 3ish!

I think there's your answer!  She's showing very clear tired signs, so she needs a super early bedtime, like I said in a couple of previous posts - and seconded by Becky.  Are you worried about the repercussions of an early bedtime?  I know it sounds counter-intuitive, but you've got nothing to lose right?  Even if she does wake early (which she does already anyway) by going to bed early she's adding an extra hour or so onto her total sleep.  You might just be surprised over a couple of days of playing catch-up how things might just fall into place and you'll hit upon that magic extension of night sleep - plus a decent nap thrown in for good measure!

Btw, my sleep bible says to tackle EW go for an early bedtime but to stick with it for AT LEAST 4 DAYS.  I think way back in an earlier post (on one of your other threads) I mentioned consistency.  For anything to work you've got to give it a decent go, don't you think?

Please don't beat yourself up about it all.  Take one day at a time and maybe look at this as a fresh start.  Forget how she's slept in the past and focus on giving her a nap as close to midday as you can (perhaps no earlier than 11) with a good meal and wind-down beforehand.  Give her a lovely warm bath and put her into her pj's if you have to!!  If she has a good nap (anything over 1.5 hours in my books) then a bedtime still no later than 6.30 p.m.  From reading your posts, I think you're a girl after my own heart - you crave consistency and predictability, so a "flexible" btc routine might be the way to go   If she only takes a short nap (1 hour or less) then I would get her into bed for the night by 6 p.m. at the latest.  That's 6 p.m. for sleep.  So do all your bedtime routine early enough to allow for sleep by 6 p.m.  What have you got to lose?

[becky1969]

I totally agree with PP.  I always tell people it takes a good 3 days for most sleep changes to happen, and sometimes 7 for really ingrained problems.  I've told the story often about when we tried to institute the dream feed with my son.  The first night he still woke twice more for feeds after his 11 pm dream feed.  I wanted to give up! How stupid is feeding him at 11 pm only to have to do it 3 hours later?  But my DH made me stick with it.  3 days later, it still wasn't working.  But 7 days later VOILA! He was sleeping from 11 pm to 5 am.  He just needed time.

I totally get being afraid to try the REALLY early bedtime.  You're so exhausted, all you need is a 4 am wake-up!    Good lord, that would scare the pants off me too! But early bedtimes usually lick this type of problem (after enough time).  I tell you, I'd be half-inclined to hire someone -- a high school kid, even -- to be at your house first thing in the morning to take care of that early waking if it happens so that  you can get some decent sleep.  A high school kid could go in and play with her until 6:30 am, a more decent waking for you.  I personally think after 2-3 days you'll be seeing her have a better wake-up time! Which will help naps and then will help bedtime get moved to a more normal time.  But she just needs a few early nights to help her break this awful sleep pattern she's in.  High school kids can be pretty cheap!  Do you guys have any cousins/nieces/nephews who would like to earn a few bucks by sleeping at your house a couple of nights?  A big pancake breakfast in the morning might be added incentive!    MIL on the weekend is a fine alternative too.  Grandmother's often have more patience than we do.  And I know my MIL tends to be an early riser because her bladder doesn't let her
sleep too late! 




And PP has it RIGHT on the nose: 6 pm is IN BED READY FOR SLEEP.  This is hard to accomplish, but pays off gang-busters.  It only has to work once and your life will change.  Seriously,  the first time she sleeps from 6 pm to 7 am you'll know that things are fixed.  Your nap will then be at a more reasonable time to works for her (say noon, which will only be 5 hours A time), she'll be rested enough to take a 2 hour nap, and then you can do a 6:30/7 pm bedtime without stretching her little system!

[RACHPEM]

Hi guys, as I missed your posts I planned for a 6.30 bedtime, she did not fall asleep until 6.45 and woke at 12.30 briefly, I think she heard my hubby coming to bed butshe did settle herslef after around 30 mins.  She woke at 4.50 and dropped back off after 30 mins for 20 mins, so still 10ish hrs with the wakings etc, which does still make me wonder if she will ever sleep more than thaat as she never has slept much from birth.
I will give the earlier bedtimes a go, but my hubby is so opposed to it he thinks her body clock is set at that tme and if we offer a later bedtime after a wk or so she will get used to the later time.
I am also not sure she will ever do a 2hr nap either, this only tends to happen when she is ill at best we get 1,30.
What time would you aim for nap today?
Cheers Rachael x