I am so desperate, can someone help me?

[becky1969]

congrats on the nap and the late wake-up!!

[RACHPEM]

Ok we messed up a little yesterday for a change! we popped out in the pm and Maya fell asleep in the car around 5pm she could not even keep her eyes open.  She napped for only about 10 mins as we were not far from home, I still tried for a 6.30 bedtime as she had to have tea etc ,but although she was happy in her cot she did not fall asleep until 7.15 ish and awake 5.15!!! she was really happy when she woke this morning and no chance of her going back to sleep.  I know she drops the occasional longer night in but most nights is still 10 hrs and it feels like this has been going on forever. We have our clocks going back next month, what on earth do I do about that I cant get up at 4am!!!
I just cant reset her body clock., I am so fed up with early bedtimes (for me) and early mornings I never see my hubby and when I do I am so exhausted I just want to sleep.
Help!!!!
Rachael x

[nike]

Sorry you're feeling disheartened, Rachael.  I do think you're making progress though, don't you?  When was your last pre-5 a.m. wake-up?

I am so fed up with early bedtimes (for me) and early mornings I never see my hubby and when I do I am so exhausted I just want to sleep.

I love early bedtimes   Since DS1 (3.5 years) recently dropped his day nap, we have both boys in bed at approx 6.30 p.m.  Yes, I practically collapse in exhaustion from running around after 2 toddlers all day, and I need an early bedtime too, but I have a lot more time in the evening with DH than most ppl I know.  My brother has 3 girls who have absolutely no routine, they just fall asleep wherever and whenever they want.  Their 4 year old sometimes goes to bed as late as 11 p.m.   I know which I'd rather   But of course Maya has to fit in with your family life, too. 

Has anyone asked you yet what her demeanour/behaviour is like generally?  Is she a happy little girl generally or is she always tired and cranky?  I would think if her bodyclock was really set on no more than 10.5 hours overnight and 1.5 hours nap then she'd be functioning pretty well and generally happy.  If her behaviour is othewise then I'd definitely be trying to extend that sleep total as much as I could.

she was really happy when she woke this morning and no chance of her going back to sleep

Well, on this occasion you'd almost excuse her for the EW, wouldn't you?  If she's waking happy then she's obviously on her way to catching up on sleep and I think you'll find is on her way towards stretching that nap and wake-up time out.  In this event I'd almost certainly keep her up til at least 11.30 a.m. for her nap, maybe even stretch her out another 15 mins.  It's all about pushing that day out, remember. 

The other alternative I was going to suggest was to work at extending that nap whatever way you can.  If you ultimately want a later bedtime then you have to get her napping longer and later into the afternoon.  I personally can't see her doing this until she erases all that OT.  JMO.

I'm sorry but there's just nothing else I can offer.  You're her mummy and if your gut instinct tells you the early bedtime isn't for either of you, then see if anyone else can offer any more suggestions.  I really do hope you carry on for a little while at least because I think you're both doing really well.

Btw, I think I mentioned somewhere a couple of pages ago that I'd avoid (if possible) any car trips where you think she might take a catnap which can interfere with either nap or bedtime.  For a 6.30 bedtime, I would actually be serving dinner at 5 p.m.  Any later and my boys are just too tired to eat.  In this situation, if a car trip is unavoidable, I would be plying her with food in the car, maybe some healthy snacks so that if she didn't eat when you got home, she'd still have something nutritious in her tummy.  Remember also it's not just about food, it's the DISTRACTION

[RACHPEM]

hi Nike, I am sorry to moan, you are right I am disheartened, it is just my hubby does not come in til 8.30-9pm most evenings and I am ready for bed at that time, it was also the anniversary of my moms death yesterday so I am feeling pretty blue about that.   I am going to stick to the earlier bedtimes I just wish I could get to 6am regular and I promise I will never moan again! She is cranky alot of the time so I do think you are right and she does need more sleep she is already lying on the floor sleepily and it is only 10.30.  We very rarely go out if I thik she may fall asleep in the car but I needed to get out yesterday some days I get fed up being stuck in, and unlike you living in oz our weather is not too good esp at the mo with all the rain we keep having it makes the park even difficult.
Anyway please forgive me and dont think I am moaning at you not being able to solve this for me I am really grateful for all your help and advice and like you say it is tons better than it has been, it just seems to have been going on forever and I need to rant once in a while cause noone hear listens, hubby thinks 9pm would be the best bedtime, although if he was hear al lday with her I could bet her bedtime would shift even earlier than 6.30, lol!!!!
Thanks again xxxxx

[nike]

This must be a tough time of year for you, especially the first anniversary of your mother's passing. Sending big ((hugs)) your way Rachael. 

I'm only sorry I don't have the "miracle" cure for you   I can't even imagine how difficult your situation is with getting up so early, day after day, and then having DH arriving back home so late as well.  He must feel like he misses out on Daddy-Maya time too.  What time does he leave for work in the morning?  Could he maybe get up to her more often and let you have a little lie-in?  You both could look at this as him getting to spend some quality time with Maya and you getting some quality extra sleep  

The only thing I can say is that this won't last forever.  Whenever we go through glitches (such as currently toilet training #1, for example) I keep telling myself "well, he won't be wearing nappies when he's 10"...LOL   Just think, when Maya's a teenager it's likely you'll be dragging her out of bed in the morning

Oh, and if she's lying on the floor sleepily at 10.30 get her up!  Put on some music and get dancing for half an hour - always a great indoor activity!  Seriously, you need to push past that tired barrier to get her ready for a nice, long nap.  Of course, tone it down closer to early lunch and bed

GL

[nike]

PS:  forgot to say to moan away, that's what we're here for

[RACHPEM]

Believe me there is no way Maya will be sleeping in as a teen I will have her up as pay back lol.  She really resisted nap today and did not go off until 11.50 which I would guess at Ot due to late night last night and prev nt, what do you think? I know I keep harping on at this but do I stick with 6.30 bed tonight?
I know I have to push her out so should i just work on nap for now and keep bed where it is?
Thankyou again xx

[becky1969]

Hi Rach!

I think you are making MARVELOUS progress! I also see a pattern of later and later wakings.  When I first became aware of your posts, she was waking at 4:30! You're now consistently getting wakings after 5.  That is great! Yes, progress is slow, but just think if in another month she's waking at 6! Wouldn't that be nice?

I also see a pattern of nights when you are unable to get her down early, she is waking earlier.  That tells me the early bedtime is working, and as long as your consistent it WILL work.  I think what I would do is just terminate all evening activities for 1 week.  1 week isn't that long, right? And in that time, be absolutely consistent with an early bedtime, regardless of time/length of nap.  After that week you can go back to your 'normal' life, but I have a sneaking suspicion that you will have changed her naps around and gotten a later waking after that week.  In all the posts I've read, I don't think you've made the early bedtime but about every other day at best, and really in order for her to catch up on her sleep she needs consistent early bedtimes, otherwise it's defeating the purpose: OT is OT! Whether she's OT by 30 minutes or by 3 hours, she's going to be OT and wake up early.  That's the sad annoying fact about being OT.

That's just my crazy idea!    You can tell me to shove it where the sun don't shine, and I'll just do that! 

Much love to you on the anniversary of your mom's death. I know it can't be easy, and you must also be so exhausted.  I think you are doing such a fabulous job!  You'll get to see your DH in the evenings again, I promise.  In fact, 1 month from today I predict this problem will be behind you or nearly so.   

[nike]

HEAR HEAR BECKY

I think what I would do is just terminate all evening activities for 1 week

My thoughts exactly.  If you can't do it, just do the best you can.  Unfortunately in Maya's case you will have to work hard and consistently at getting her over all that OT...be very vigilant about nap and bedtimes and like Becky said, you will all reap the rewards.  I also happen to think one week is a small sacrifice in regard to getting her sleeping back on track.  But, hey, it's your call

She really resisted nap today and did not go off until 11.50 which I would guess at Ot due to late night last night and prev nt

How long did she nap for?

You said she was falling asleep on the floor at 10.30, right?  You need to be doing some stimulating activity with her (or feeding her a snack for energy and distraction) to get over this tiredness hump.  Remember I said to have a little dance with her?  Then I'd be going into an early lunch and wind-down (possibly a story or nice bath, whatever it is you normally do) and then bed by 11.30.  The ultimate aim is to get her to midday-ish but I don't think that will be in the near future til she either (a) lengthens her day nap and pushes the day out, resulting in slightly later bedtime or (b) starts waking later in the morning.

I know I keep harping on at this but do I stick with 6.30 bed tonight?

 

I think your best bet would be to hover around the 6, 6.15, no later than 6.30 bedtime for now.  As I've said before, my DS2 is the same age as Maya and is in bed by 6.30/6.45 (7 p.m. at the latest) every night - that's with a 2 hour nap in the middle of the day (sometimes longer; if he sleeps later, sometimes he's going to bed with only 4 hours A time between finish of nap and bedtime) and a 7, 7.30 a.m. wake-up.  Now, he is a fully rested child.  See what I mean?  I recognise, of course that they're all different and my Noah is on the higher end of sleep requirements.

Do you agree Becky??

[RACHPEM]

Morning Nike, well Maya only slept for her magic 1hr 20 mins, which meant nap ended at 13.10pm in bed and fast alseep by 6.30 and awake at 5.30 yay!!!
Aiming for 11.30 and 6.30 today too.  I do try and do take her mind off her tiredness and I give snacks etc, we are also going to focus for a wk too.  It has just been difficult last wk with having that family do, but generally we work round nap/bed time and I am quite strict with this but sometimes it gets hard to stay focused when everyone here keeps telling you she goes to bed too early etc, and when nothing appears to be working, so it is a good job you guys are here to snap me back in line

[nike]

nothing appears to be working

I went back and re-read your first post.  Back then she was waking at 4.30 a.m.  I think the earliest morning you've had for a week at least has been 5 a.m. (?), after which your MIL had her for the night and she went to bed later, but generally she's now hovering around the 5.15/5.30 mark right?

You just got an 11 hour night's sleep last night and 1hr 20 nap = 12 hrs 20 mins!

fast alseep by 6.30

  I think previously she was having trouble settling and it was taking her a while to fall asleep at night.

it gets hard to stay focused when everyone here keeps telling you she goes to bed too early

   Why don't you tell those people to come over to your house and attend to her when she wakes at 4.30 a.m.?

While she's still catching up, how about trying to extend that nap a bit?  How long do you leave her in her cot after she wakes?  Does she wake crying or moaning and groaning?  I know some kids wake crying but are otherwise happy and getting enough sleep, but the majority of times they cry bc they're still tired.  I would not attend to her at all if she was just moaning and groaning...she might surprise you and go back to sleep!  If crying, I'd still leave her for a while, again she just might surprise you and catch a few more Z's.  Remember that while she is in her cot she is still resting, and resting is the next best thing to sleeping  

It would be helpful to know EXACTLY what you do for her nap and her wind-down routine, also what you do when she wakes.  I can't find any info about her nap in any of your previous posts.  Is she still having a bottle before nap?

Yes, she might just be one of those kids who is wired for less sleep but I'd also stand by saying that if she's cranky or irritable as you say then she does need more and we just have to find out a way to help her get more!  An early bedtime and getting a good nap in are the keys here. 

xo

[RACHPEM]

Hi again, Maya has only took 1 hr for her nap today although she has woke up happy.  She generally just shouts me when she wakes and after 10 mins then will start to cry it is very rareI can get her back to sleep sometimes if she is really upset I can tell she needs more or she wont stand up in the cot and needs help to extend her sleep and on occasion she will take another 30 mins but mostly when she is up that is it.  I wonder if the shorter nap is because of the longer night sleep?
She does not normally have a bottle before her nap, and re: wind down we just do 15 mins or so quiet time with a book or low key but she is normally that tired by that time she is falling asleep before she goes down.
Btw I know by about 3pm she will be cranky and showing tired signs which is generally the case too.,
Rachael x

[LisaM]

Hi Rachael

Just popping to say hello and sorry that you are still trying to find the magic formula for that 6am wake-up!  We are also still in the same boat as you.  Occasionally we get a few really good days (by that I mean anything after 5.30am) and then all of a sudden she will wake at 4.30ish again for about 3 days in a row and you just think what on earth has changed.  We did have to change our routine as she now has to stay up even longer in the am because we have to pick up dd1 from school at 12 so not ever asleep before 12.40.  So our routine is pretty much this:
Wake - anywhere between 5-6 (6 if very lucky)
Nap 12.40 - just like your lo she very often only sleeps 1.15 but sometimes will do longer, am sure she is OT cos of long morning but will have to wait til Dec when dd1 at school fulltime to rectify this poor soul
Then in bed for 6.30 most nights, asleep by 7pm hopefully.

I totally know where you are coming from on the early nights etc, am in bed by 9pm and lights out by 9.30ish most nights.  My dh normally not some til 7.30ish so like you we hardly see each other apart from weekends.  However, it won't last forever and then no doubt we will long for the times when they were small and so sweet.

Anyway, just wanted to say hi - I do check how you are getting on and am glad you have moved on from the 4 o'clock wakes - they are the killers.

Lisa xx

[becky1969]

I truly doubt that she took the short nap because of longer night.   A lot of times what I see is kids start to resolve their nights they backslide on naps.  NOt sure why that is! Then after a few days both nights and naps get better and then you are well on your way to fixing the OT problem! So, I think this is actually a sign of progress though I'm sure it freezes your soul with fear!

I think Nike is right on. She's giving you fantastic advice.

I'm also wondering if your DD is spirited?  The shouting when she wakes up and someof the other things you mention sound very spirited to me.  With kids like this, you can actually have too long of a wind down! With a touchy/grouchy kid you need a longer wind down because transitions are super hard for them.  With a spirited child, they are easily revved up -- even with a quiet activity like reading.  Since we know she's already exhausted at nap time we don't need to relax her so much as just get her the hell in bed!    So, I might consider shortening your wind down phase a bit, perhaps just 1 story then doing whatever rituals you have -- telling things night-ngiht, songs, whatever.  Just a thought...

And I probably would try to extend that nap, even when she wakes up shouting for you.  I'd go in and say "Honey, it's still night-ngith time!".  I'd then get her out and rock ehr and see what happens.  If you can even get another 30 minutes out of her it will just make the night go that much better.

[RACHPEM]

Hi , thanks again for your advice.  You are right I was dreading last night after the shorter nap however she was fast asleep by 6.30 and although I heard her stir at 5.10 she went back off until 6.10!!! progress or what? Maya is very spirited we dont have too long windowns and tbh a lot of the time esp for naps we dont have such a ritual it depends on how she is tbh.  Even at night the last few days we have cut out storied etc as she has just been too tired, so just  abottle and bed.
Fingers crossed for today.
Rachael x