Author Topic: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?  (Read 1902 times)

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Offline monopod

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Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« on: September 06, 2008, 22:42:48 pm »
Hullo there :)

My LO is nearly 16 weeks and has been on a proper 3h EASY routine for some 5 weeks now. We generally start our day between 6.30 and 7.30am and end it between 7 and 8pm. He has recently been going to sleep quite independently (after loads of shouty talking to himself, and sometimes with the help of his dummy (I had briefly wondered whether he was getting addicted but he doesn't always need/want it and often it falls out/he spits it out before getting into deep sleep, so I think the answer is no?)). Some time ago we also vanquished the 30min OT nap monster.

Of course I rejoiced too soon, because in the past couple of weeks we have suddenly developed multiple NWs, and the 45min nap monster has also arrived! I am trying W2S but as yet haven't been too successful. He often wakes happy from these short naps, particularly in the morning, and is all smiles and wanting to play when I come to get him. He's also managing longer A times, and we've been doing a lot of EASAE due to the short naps.

I was reading the FAQs and see that these may be signs of needing to transition to a 3.5h/4h EASY (LO has also recently, though not consistently, not been all that hungry at the 3h mark, although I don't think he can quite make 4h as yet).

Multiple NWs - he's started to wake just before his dreamfeed, which we try to give between 10.30 and 11, though he doesn't do this consistently so I'm not sure about bringing forward the DF. He's then awake through the DF, though he goes back to sleep fairly quickly after (sometimes after mantra crying for a while and sometimes with the help of his dummy). Then he's typically been waking once between 1.30 and 2.30, and again multiple times between 5 and 6.30, but I don't think he's hungry at these times as he settles quickly with his dummy (he usually gets a feed at between 3 and 4am when he does seem genuinely hungry).

Do you think the NWs may be a sign of the need to transition, or do you think they stem from another cause? Another thing I was wondering was whether the DF is disrupting his sleep such that he's now waking in expectation for it, and whether the same might be said for the 2am and 5am wakeups - that he's somehow programmed himself according to his 3h daytime schedule?
 
In case it's important, I am BFing and LO is spirited/touchy. Please do let me know if I can provide any other information that might be necessary/useful!

Any thoughts much appreciated.

*EDIT:
Another thing I had been wondering was whether he was in fact actually hungry at 2 and 5 (I used to feed him at these times when he was younger), in which case, perhaps I should just feed him and we might all get a better night's sleep overall.

But then this morning he didn't wake at all until around 3am, after falling asleep post-DF (which he woke up for - then he yowled himself back to sleep). But then he was up again at 4.45 (gave dummy), 5.30 (gave dummy), and I can't remember after that because DH took care of him. I'm not sure whether he's actually going back to sleep properly in these early hours, and he does seem to have a bio-clock that wakes him early, but because I'm a zombie in these early hours I haven't a clue what time he actually wakes up and starts talking to himself, which will inevitably have repercussions for our first EAS/AEAS cycle of the day.

Today he also went 4h in the morning between feeds - and he wasn't asking for food, either!
« Last Edit: September 07, 2008, 13:08:52 pm by monopod »

Offline Bryony

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #1 on: September 07, 2008, 18:14:57 pm »
Hi there!

I would definitely start moving towards a 4 hourly EASY - it sounds as though all the signs are there, and he's the right age for it!  Do you think he can handle the longer A times? What A times are you working on right now?  They need to be able to handle 2hrs A time for at least some of the day for the 4 hourly EASY to work. If you are going to increase his A time do it gradually so that he doesn't get OT
xx


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Offline monopod

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #2 on: September 08, 2008, 20:26:24 pm »
Hi Bryony, thanks for your reply :)

I do think he can handle longer A times but as yet not consistently. He's done 2h once or twice without noticeable OT effects, but at the moment we're at 1h30/1h40 most of the time. We've been having a bit of a problem with short naps lately (45mins) so I haven't yet been able to try to implement the longer times properly. I think I'm going to try that transition in 5-10 min increments from tomorrow, but will try to go with his cues too. Today he went 3.5h between feeds but we ended up doing EASASE as he was getting tired too early from accumulated lack of sleep.

I do think he's a little OT at the moment so will start slow, with 3h 10mins or 3h 15mins.

Looking back at my logs I have a feeling that his NWs may partially also be due to OT, particularly as on a number of occasions his final A time ended up being way too long. I'll keep an eye on this and hopefully by getting both these things sorted the NWs and EWs will take care of themselves (must be optimistic!)

I'm also a little concerned that he may be starting to rely on his dummy a bit to help him settle, so that's another thing I'm going to have to keep an eye on...

:)   
« Last Edit: September 08, 2008, 20:29:50 pm by monopod »

Offline Bryony

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #3 on: September 09, 2008, 18:33:50 pm »
sounds good!  sounds as though you have some things to think about there.

if you are increasing A time, do do it very slowly - you don't want an OT baby on your hands, and if you think he can't handle it then go back a bit and try again in a few weeks

keep us posted!

xx


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Offline monopod

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #4 on: September 09, 2008, 20:17:04 pm »
I think he is already OT  :-\ We're off on hols next week as well so I will do all I can as damage limitation until afterward, trying to help him overcome the OT first - and then try and stretch his A times gradually.

Thanks Bryony :)

Offline J & J's Mom

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #5 on: September 14, 2008, 12:59:16 pm »
Lurking... I have a 16 week old DD and was wondering whether we need to transition!  I'm so afraid less feedings daily means MORE NWs...



Offline Bryony

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2008, 15:13:39 pm »
J' and J's mum- you'd be surprised! Most do better on 4 hourly feeding as thier tummies learn to take in more, so that they are really full each time

xx


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Offline J & J's Mom

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2008, 15:26:17 pm »
I'm trying to stretch her today.  It's just tough because she still can't really tolerate more than 1.5 hours A time.  Last night she woke at 10pm for the second night in a row.  The first night I fed her and she ended up waking 3 more times, so last night I didn't let her eat until 11.  It was hard because she was STARVING and really ticked off.  She would start to go back to sleep w/ p/s but would wake back up w/in minutes because she was truly hungry.  I felt terrible, but I have to do SOMETHING because I can't continue getting up 4x a night! 




Offline Bryony

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2008, 16:46:18 pm »
OK - so if she can't tolerate more than 1.5hrs A time then maybe she's not ready?? For us Katie could easily go longer between feeds but couldn't manage the longer A time until she was about 4.5months. I think for many LOs the limiting factor is the A time rather than the feeds!

An OT LO will sleep worse  not better...

Bryony


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Offline JudyM

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2008, 17:01:41 pm »
Also lurking as I have similar problems but only been BWing for nearly 2 weeks... don't think we've broken the OT cycle enough to move to 4 hours and also dread more NWings.  Wonder if I should just bite the bullet and go for ir?!

Offline Bryony

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2008, 17:58:40 pm »
JudyM - I would get on top of the OT first if the 2hrs A time is going to be a stretch...

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Offline JudyM

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2008, 18:44:42 pm »
Thanks Bryony - problem I have is that he really struggles to nap for more than 45 mins despite my best efforts to get him back off to sleep (ssh-patting mainly).  I'm starting to learn when he's tired but sometimes it seems like he's tired all day!!  BW has really improved his sleeping so far, but just can't seem to break the OT cycle.   :(

Offline monopod

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #12 on: September 23, 2008, 14:33:35 pm »
JudyM and J&J's Mom - really hope that things are starting to look a little better for you both!

Things are still not so great for us here, but I'm persevering. We had a bad week the week before last, with lots of no naps/30-45min naps and much crying (see my thread here: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=132981.0), but since then we appear to have tackled his naps. However, nights continue to be bad, and I'm not sure why.

The day we got back from hols, he slept for 1h45mins in the car on the way home - and then had two further 1h45min naps during the day - no waking at the 30/45min marks, hardly any crying when I settled him. Since then he's done a couple of 1h45min naps again, but is tending to wake up earlier (varies anywhere between 1h15 and 1h45). He seems to be getting through the 30/45min transitions ok, just some squeaking or brief fussing and I don't have to go in to him.

We're also on a 3.5h EASY now, which he seems to be ok with.

But nights are a different story. First, he keeps waking before we have the chance to give him his dreamfeed - we can usually settle him quickly again either by giving him his dummy or by shh-stroking (our variation on shh-pat which involves stroking his head!), but if it's close to his DF he's often up again within 20mins or so, and we end up giving his 'dreamfeed' early (EBM of 5oz at the moment; he can take more but I haven't been able to pump enough) - it hasn't been a proper dreamfeed for ages now as he's awake or semi-awake throughout.

Then he keeps waking, not at the same times always but often close to 1am, again somewhere between 1 and 3, at 3ish (at which I feed him), and then he's good for another couple of hours but starts making noises from 5 onwards. This isn't always an EW - in fact I have gone to check on him several times when he's been moaning loudly to find that he's actually still asleep. Then he usually wakes for the day between 6 and 7.

I have been wondering whether he is addicted to his dummy (as it will often calm him instantly and send him straight back to sleep), and have been removing it before he falls asleep as per the gentle removal method, only letting him have it for as long as it takes him to calm down. I haven't had to replace it yet - I've just been pulling it out and he smacks his lips, looks blearily at me, and continues going off to dreamland. I don't know whether this means anything though or whether the NWs could indeed be due to dummy addiction, because when he wakes at night, it is difficult to settle him without the dummy (apart from a feed that is). I keep second-guessing myself here because although he seems to settle really quickly with it, on the other hand there's the fact that he can continue going to sleep without it when I first get him down, and also because he's making it through his sleep transitions during the day without it. I'm confused ???

Any thoughts?

Thanks so much for your continuing support.

EDIT:
I've been reflecting and am wondering whether it could be one or more of a few things?
 
(a) Not eating enough during the day - he is quite distractible and impatient for a faster flow and will either get distracted or fuss until he gets another let-down. I was previously doing single-sided feeding but when he started crying for more (kept latching on and off and crying), which stopped when I switched sides, I am now offering both sides at every feed (I offer the 2nd when he absolutely refuses to eat any more from the 1st, rather than after a set time). He seems to drain each breast within 10 minutes, but it's really difficult to determine whether he's eating enough. I particularly wonder this because I think he can actually go more than 3.5h between feeds, but he isn't ready for a 4h EASY just yet as he can't yet handle the consistently longer A times, so maybe he just isn't hungry enough to take a proper feed?

(b) The second is that his final A time is I think ending up too long. He is doing 2+ hours in the AM, then about 1h45 for the rest of the day unless he hasn't napped properly, but he's then awake from around 5pm until falling asleep between 7 and 7.30. If I feed him at around 5pm I've been trying to last at least 1h30mins before topping him up, in an effort to make his last feed last longer (as he's been waking up before his DF and I wasn't sure whether it was due to hunger). But he takes a while to feed so by the time we're done and he's in bed, it's 2+ hours since his last nap.

(c) The DF itself. It hasn't actually been a 'dream' feed in a long while and I wonder whether it is helping or hindering his sleep? He seems to wake in anticipation for it (if that is an appropriate interpretation of his waking beforehand, typically between 9.30 and 10pm), and I recall a time before we introduced a proper EASY and the DF, when he actually slept through until 6-8 hours after his last feed of the evening (around 5-6 hours after he'd fallen asleep). Although that could equally have been because he was exhausted and was crashing out. Hmmm.

Arrgggghhh too many possibilities!

   
« Last Edit: September 23, 2008, 20:44:10 pm by monopod »

Offline monopod

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #13 on: September 23, 2008, 21:12:45 pm »
FYI this is what our day looked like today:

A 0630 - chatted to himself before I got him up at 0645. Did nappy change and had some quiet talktime
E 0700
A Another nappy change and playtime
S 0835 - 1000

A from 1000
E 1030
A Nappy change and playtime
S 1155 - 1315 (semi-woke at 1305 and I gave him his dummy; he slept for a further 10mins before being wide-awake and wanting to play)

A from 1315
E 1345 (hungry earlier)
A Playtime
S 1500 - 1645

A from 1645
E 1710
A Playtime and bath
TU 1845
S Asleep by 1915

He then woke at 2050, 2120 and 2135. I am wondering whether I should have gone in at all - I wasn't sure whether it was a mantra cry or whether it was a genuine cry that was just tired. But I ended up going in anyway and shh-stroking didn't quite work so we ended up giving him his dummy. It's 2205 now and DH is upstairs giving him his DF.

EDIT:

Well, it's morning now. He got up at 0050 and 0120 and both times DH hung back to see what would happen if he didn't go to him. I was out of it but DH tells me that he ended up giving him his dummy. I fed him at just after 3, and I heard him start to fuss at 4.45 or so and somewhere between 5 and 6 but I didn't go to him and he stopped! I got him up at 6.50 this morning - I know he'd kind of been up for a while but I'm not sure to what extent as when I went to him he was fussing quite sleepily.
« Last Edit: September 24, 2008, 07:26:25 am by monopod »

Offline monopod

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Re: Multiple NWs - does it sound like we need to transition?
« Reply #14 on: September 23, 2008, 21:28:05 pm »
I'm also thinking that he may be starting to teethe (lots of drool and constantly chomping on his fingers and anything else he can get into his mouth), but then again wouldn't that affect daytime naps too?  ???