waking for multiple night feeds at 6 months, how do I sort this????

[Lilachawk]

We did seem to be doing well and then Malachi got his first cold and we are now having more issues, he is wanting to feed at least twice in the night, I really feel he doesn't need these night feeds (maybe one at a push but not 2!) at his age but he is waking hungry, when it's not hunger and he wakes he is really easy to resettle and those wakings have reduced allot, I bf and don't know how I can increase his day time food intake, how can I get rid of at least one of these night feeds or is it that he needs them, I am pretty sure it's not a gs as he has one only a couple of weeks ago and also we are not on day 5 of 2 night feeds, I am worried he is starting a feed to sleep association at night, I have done the best I can to explain the problems in the answears to the questions below, hope this makes sense and I am so sorry for the huge huge length of this post! Thanks in advance, Jen x


How old is your child?
Just over 6 months

What's his/her daily routine?
He is on a 4 hour EASY however with school starting up again and everyone having had 'the cold' we have been a bit all over the place but getting settled back down to it now, a typical day looks like this:
Malachi often wakes around 6am so has A time before the first feed of the day
E: 7am
A: includes solids at about 7.45-8am
S: 9am - 9.30am
E: 11am
A: includes solids at noon
S: 1.30pm,
E: 3pm
A: includes solids at 4pm
S: will sometimes try for a cat nap around 5pm - 5.30pm but really not having much joy getting him down for a nap at this point anymore, the way our day works I can't really get out for a walk at this time and use the pram for a nap
E: 7pm then bed

What's nap routine?
for morning naps in the week he sleeps in the pram as he falls asleep on the school run, at the weekend he foes down in his cot, he is always OT in the week for his morning nap as by the time we leave for school he has normally had 3 hours of A time but can't get him to nap before due to school, however he almost always naps well and I have to wake him at 11am for his feed somedays! Afternoon nap we got up to the bedroom after having a little quite time on my lap downstairs, we sit on the bed and have a cuddle and I sing our sleep trigger song he then goes down into his cot and is normally asleep within 10min of patting, he will then sleep between 1 hour to 1.5 hours, I do sometimes need to go in and extend the nap but only takes about 5/10min to resettle him.

What's bedtime routine? Time?
Bedtime routine starts at 6.30pm with a bath then a short massage and into sleepsuit, I then feed his downstairs at 7pm and take him up to bedroom, put him in his sleeping bag, sit and have a cuddle and sing our bedtime sleep trigger song and then he is then put in his cot, he goes down really well however since his cold started (he is not fully over it but well on the mend) he has been falling asleep while feeding and I can't wake him up, I put him in his bag and all that but he is just out cold, it doesn't seem to cause a problem at that time however I am worry he is now forming a feed to sleep association at night time.

Do you bottle or breastfed??
breastfeed

How much? or how long?
he normally has about 10min on each breast each feed
If breastfed.. one side or both?? (at each feed)
always had both sides in the day but just one side at night feeds

How many wakes per night?
with his resent cold he had been waking lots in the early evening due to being bunged up and coughing, as he gets better that's getting better however he has been bringing his night feed earlier and earlier each night, last night he was screaming to be fed at just 9pm! he then woke hungry again at 2am but then slept until 6am, the normal way it's been going is waking at 12.30-1.30am to eat and then again at 5am, I find it hard to believe he is really THAT hungry at night but I don't know how I can increase his food intake in the day anymore! I feel that it might be become a feed to sleep association as he is always fast asleep at the end of the feed, if I try to take him off before he is asleep when the sucking starts to slow he has started to cry and fuss and root like he is still hunger so I put him back on, this will go on and on until I let him feed till he lets go at which point he is fast asleep!

What's your LO like when waking at night? How long is he/she up?
if it's not hunger I can normally get him back to sleep in under 10min with patting if its a night feed see above!!! I probably pat too long as if I stop as soon as he stops crying he will start up again, I pat until I feel his body relax and his eyes close, I don't think he can be completely asleep at that point, if I stand over the cot and watch I see him have his jolt and he is fine, I also hear him stir in the night and settle himself back off so I am unsure about the patting thing!
When you go to him/her is she fussing or crying? Or is it a mantra cry?
In the night I only go to him if he is crying to give him the chance to self settle however if he fusses for more then 30seconds then it always ends up in crying and me having to go to him, sometimes I think maybe I should go to him when he starts fussing as it might be quicker to get him back off but again I am unsure on this and could use some advice!
What have you tried to settle??
We started with PU/PD when we took away the dummy, it's very rare now though that we have to PU/PD its patting we use now but no shh as it annoys him

What do you do for A time and how long is it?
his A times have recently increased from 2 hours to up to 2.5 hours, we do all sorts of things from playing with toys in his chair, boor bouncer, tummy time, sitting practice and playing with his sister

Are there developmental issues such as teething or milestones?
He is teething but not too badly right now, he is also just learning to sit (can do about 30sec to a min, getting better every day), I also find that if he has rolled onto is tummy in the night it wakes him up as he can't resist pushing up and gets himself in a bit of a state about it as wants to go to sleep but can't seem to remember how to roll back to his side (he sleeps on his side) when he is half asleep

Have you introduced cereal? Why, how much, and how many times a day? (for LO’s under 6 months)
he is on 3 meals a day, however we only started the 3rd meal today so will see how that goes (breakfast, I know that a bit odd but he previously wasn't intersted in solids in the morning and was much happier having his solids at lunch and tea time but seems to want that breakfast now)

Do they have a prop? If so what is it?
he did have a dummy but we got rid of it close to a month ago and he also used to nap in the swing but stopped that same time we got rid of the dummy although I am worried he has started a feed to sleep prop at night

Do they have a lovie?
yes, sometimes he wants it to chew the arms (its a cloth mouse) when he is teething it is always in his cot in reach and grabs it when he wants it

[*Nicola*]

Firstly,

Thanks a million for all that information!! Very helpful

You have done such a good job of getting rid of props and having your LO sleep independently I do think that sleep has probably just gone a bit wonky since his cold and he will get back on track soon.

There are a couple of things that stand out at me that you might want to have a think about

1) Routine.  He is currently doing a 13 hour day whereas most babies work best on a 12 hour day.  I would maybe consider going for a bedtime no later than 630pm (aim to have him sleeping by then)  if he is routinely up at 6am.  This is particularly important if he is refusing the catnap as it will prevent him going to bed OT.  Wake ups in the hours after bedtime as often indicative of baby being OT and I wonder if this could be the case with your LO as well as the cold/congestion waking him? 

2) Feeding.  BFing to sleep at bedtime.  I do understand that it is difficult, but I would encourage you not to feed him to sleep at bedtime, esp if he is poorly and fussing but even if you stop him as you have been doing, when he starts to slow his sucking and then settle him with pat/shh.  I would do the same for night feeds

It actually sounds to me like he is OT before bedtime and this is why he is falling asleep at the breast.  Bringing bedtime/bedtime routine forward as I explained above should also help with this   I also suspect he is not taking a full feed at bedtime due to being too sleepy/falling asleep at breast at 7pm feed.  This is probably why he is waking earlier during the night.

Did he wake to feed before having the cold?  I'm not sure if you were doing zero, 1 or 2 feeds prior to this, sorry.

With regard to night feeds it isn't uncommon for babies, esp BF ones, to still be night feeding at 6 months.  If you only feed one side at night I would encourage you to feed both sides at the first night feed and see if that helps him to sleep longer. 

Have you tried pat/shh to settle him at night rather than feeding?

These links might be useful for increasing day feeds

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=66001.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=88759.0

I had another point but I have completely forgotten what it is now

HTH a bit! x

[*Nicola*]

Oh, I remembered

3) Solids ... some babies do increase their NW's for milk once they start on solids.  This can happen if they reduce their day milk due to eating solids.  The solids make them feel full but have nowhere near the calories of BM so they then wake hungry at night. 

Just wanted to throw that out there too

x

[Lilachawk]

Thanks allot that is all very helpfull!, think I will look at the earlier bedtime and give it a shot, the biggest trouble I have is coordinating the bedtimes with my dd, since she went back to school upping from 2 mornings a week to 3 mornings and one full day and then toddlers on a Friday we have had to bring her bed time forward from 7pm to 6.30pm and I find it hard to put them to bed at the same time, if my dh puts dd to bed she will lay in bed and shout until I come in and give her an extra kiss and sing her the same song I sing Malachi (this never used to be a thing for her but she has heard me doing it with Malachi and wants to be sung to as well bless her, I have no problem with this apart from it makes it really hard to get Malachi down at the same time!), think I will just have to experiment a bit!
Before the cold through us out of whack he was having one night feed but it was getting later and later, sometimes 5am so was on the road to dropping it, I only feed when he is giving his hunger cry, any other wakings are dealt with by patting, after all I said yesterday last night he woke I think 3 times before midnight (classic OT!!) and settled with about 30 seconds of patting and then slept through to 4.45am when he wanted feeding, I admit I fell asleep feeding him, I came too at just before 6am, moved to put him back in the cot and he started up with the I want to eat again so I put him on the other side (hind sight and wakefulness say this was a bad idea, should have put him down and tried to settle him but really didn't want to wake dd, she is in a very light sleep at that time of the morning and wakes at the drop of a hat, if she had woken and Malachi had heard her up there would have been no chance of getting him back down, as soon as he hears his sister in the mornings that's it he is up and ready to play!), I let him feed for about 10min and put him back in the cot, he was half asleep but not all the way, he went back down without any assistance at all and slept until 6.45am which was great BUT that big feeding so late in the night meant he wasn't interested in eating at the 7am feed, I didn't even bother with solids it would have been a waste, he wasn't even interested in his 11am feed, wasn't until I was trying to give him is solids at just after noon that he made his desire for a propper breast feed known load and clear, but all in all it is looking like the effects of the cold are starting to clear and he is getting back to normal, we shall see, thanks for all the great advice! Jen x

[*Nicola*]

I found bedtimes a bit of a nightmare with 2 girls as well.  DP works shifts so it was really difficult for me to get bedtime 'right' by incorporating both of their needs and times.  We changed things around many times until we got it just right

Hopefully once the cold clears you will get back on a more even keel.