DF- Formula v BF & how much?

[JudyM]

Hello,


My little one is 16 weeks today and so far I've been exclusively bfing.  I've been doing EASY for a couple of weeks now and have just moved to a 4 hour routine.  His naps aren't brilliant but a definite improvement from when we started and he can now usually do 1.5 hours in the morning and afternoon (pm usually needs to be settled at 45 mins).  At the moment, his night wakings arereally confusing me!  He usually goes to sleep on his own with a dummy and we're doing the dream feed around 10.30/11.  However, he occasionally will wake up for it and then will wake again at around 2.  Sometimes he lasts until 3.30 though.  My question really is, how much milk should he be having at the dream feed?  I've been giving him expressed breast milk (about 150mls) but not sure this is enough.  I was also wondering whether giving him formula for his dream feed would help him sleep longer, but also how much I should give him?  He weighs about 15lbs if this helps...

Hope someone can help me as I'm so tired!!

Thanks 

[Mayu]

I'm in a very similar situation!!

My son is 15 weeks and I started EASY including DF last week. I'm also bfing and DF is expressed milk in a bottle - although I only get 4 oz (120ml?) each time, so that's how much I'm giving him. Sometimes I don't get enough milk, so I give him 4oz of formula instead for DF. This doesn't seem to change the time he wakes up to feed, FYI...

I do DF at 10 to 10:30pm. The first night DF was breast milk, and he woke up at 5:30 to feed. The next night with formula, 4:30. The next night with breast milk, 4:30 again. Last night with formula, 4:00. It's creeping up for some reason. The bedtime is between 7 and 7:30, depending on when he falls asleep, but the last feed is always around 6.

He also woke up at DF two nights ago and almost did last night as well as three nights ago. I posted about this, but was told that basically it's up to me whether to continue DF or not...

I was also wondering if I was not giving him enough at DF. During the day, I'm trying to move to 4-hour routine, but in the afternoon it's more like 3 hours. He is eating 5 times (7, 11, 2, 4:30 and 6).

I hope you can get some answers here, it would help me also.

[Bryony]

Hi Judy! I don't think there is any "recommended" amount - I always BF Katie even at the DF so I have no idea what she took - the idea is to give as much as they will take but it varies from very little to a lot...!

Are you sure he's hungry and that this is what is causing the wakings?  It may be that his routine needs a tweak - if you want to post it we can take a look

xx

[JudyM]

Thanks for replies.  I've been expressing rather than bfing the dream feed so I can get a bit of extra sleep!  However, expressing is a bit of a pain as it seems to take me ages to get enough (though I'm not sure I know what enough is!).  I'm not sure he's waking from hunger, I'm struggling to read his cries and particularly his hunger ones.  I've managed to get him back to sleep without feeding him sometimes but if he's really unsettled will usually resort to bf.  I know this is probably accidental parenting but I really do try and settle him by all means possible first.  I'm trying to move to a 4 hour easy at the moment and have been somewhat successful with only one night waking the last couple of nights, but I still feel he's hungry at these wakings, and that's why I'm worried that the dream feed isn't enough.  The routine I'm following is the standard 7, 11, 3 and 7.  I've tried expressing a bit extra today so will let you know if it makes a difference.  Thanks for advice

[Bryony]

Keep us posted!

If you post your routine in terms of times of sleep and eat I can have a look to see if anything needs a tweak. Often NW mean that a change is needed in the napping pattern during the day

x

[JudyM]

Hi,

I tried increasing bottle of expressed milk to 180mls on Sun night and he slept until 4.30 when it took about 20-30mins to get him back to sleep (no feed).  Last night we gave him 160mls as hubby said the 180mls took him ages to drink, and he woke at 4.00.  I got him back to sleep after 40 mins with no feed, then he woke again an hour later and I was so tired, i tried to get him back to sleep but after 20 mins gave up and fed him for 10 mins (he usually takes 20-30 mins to feed).  He then went back to sleep for about half an hour but then kept waking and I eventually left him to play in cot and tried to sleep as I was shattered!  Think this has knocked our routine off a bit today 
In terms of naps etc. through the day, the first one is usually ok and he'll sleep for 1.5 hours without waking in the middle, but the afternoon one is hit and miss.  He'll always wake at 45 mins but will go back to sleep with some encouragement from me!  The catnap's are also hit and miss, if I can get him to sleep at the right time he usually wakes up really grumpy.  Thanks for help, he's just waking so will try and post later...

[Bryony]

thanks, if you can post a typical day in terms of start and stop times of sleeps I will take a look!

B x

[JudyM]

Hi,

Typical day as follows:

E - between 7 and 7.30 (when I can drag myself out of bed)
A - 7.30/8
S - 9 (usually wakes just before 11)
E - 11
A - 11.30
S - 1
E - 3
A - 3.30
I sometimes get him to catnap between 5 & 6 but usually struggle with this.  Either way, I start getting him ready for bed around 6-6.30 which includes bath, then E, then songs, then S at around 7-7.30. 
We then do dream feed around 10.30-11.

I think the NWs aren't out of hunger but always doubt myself on this and in the middle of the night feeding him is an easier option than him crying and waking my husband and the neighbours (we have thin walls!).  Sometimes he'll go off to sleep ok, but other times will really cry and cry.  If it gets louder and squeakier I tend to feed him as I figure he must be hungry.  I also think he's teething as he dribbles loads and is constantly chomping on his finger(s) - mind you he's done this for some time now.  I've tried teething gel but it doesn't seem to have an impact on his cries.

Thanks for your help x

[Bryony]

OK so I think the issue is the lack of a catnap - without that catnap his last A time is really really long - should be max 2hrs awake at his age for most LOs.

What have you done to try and get him to take that catnap?  What time do you try?

Bx

[JudyM]

I usually try the catnap between 5-6 but sometimes he just doesn't seem tired.  Other times when he does seem tired and i get him to sleep, he then wakes up grumpy.  In the back of my mind I also worry that him sleeping so late (e.g. waking at 6 from the catnap) will affect his night time sleep...  What time would you suggest doing the catnap?  Thanks so much for your help x

[Bryony]

does he wake from his afternoon nap at 3pm? If so I would go for 5pm at the latest - you want to keep the same Awake times as earlier in the day. Then you have a shorter A time after the catnap as a short nap is not as refreshing as a longer nap. Eg if he catnaps from 5 till 5:45 you would go for a bedtime aruond 7:15 or 7:30pm

Most people find that thier LOs sleep much better with that catnap in - it has the opposite effect to what you are worried about!  and if 45 mins DOES affect his ability to fall asleep in the evening then you could wake him after 30 mins.

I found that by that age Katie would only catnap in the buggy so had to take her for a walk every day at 5pm...

XX

[JudyM]

Hi,

Here's yesterday's routine:

Awake 6.30-7
E 7.30-7.50
A 7.50-9.10
S 9.10-10.50
E 10.50-11.20
A 11.20-12.50
S 12.50-2.00 (woke at 1.30, I got him back to sleep)
A 2.20-2.50
E 2.50-3.20
A 3.20-4.30
S 4.30 (fell asleep at 4.50)-5.40
A 5.40-7.30
E 7.30
S 8.00
DF 11
Woke at 2.30, went back to sleep around 3 with no feed
Woke for the day around 6.30

His NWings are irregular but I can usually get him back to sleep without feeding him.  The DF last night was 140mls (5oz i think). At the afternoon nap he usually won't sleep 'til 3...  I tend to try for a bit, then do some light A. 

[Bryony]

That looks pretty good - and it sounds as though you had a good night that's great!

Some of his A times are slightly long for his age - do you think he's OK with those?

Bryony x

[JudyM]

Hi,

Not sure if A time's too long, but he can usually stay awake for 2 hours incl E time.  Tried the catnap again yesterday - he woke after 30 mins, I thought that would be enough but when I got him up he was grumpy until bedtime so will try a longer catnap and see if that works.  He woke last night at 1, fell asleep when I put the dummy back in, awake again at 2.30, got him back to sleep with no feed about 3.15.  He woke again at 6.00, wouldn't go back to sleep so I got him up  for his food at 6.40.  Hubby says I should just leave him to cry  He also says we should try giving him some food before bed as all his workmates say this works.  I know in the book it says it's an old wives' tale but I'm tempted...

Just in case any other suggestions, here's yesterday's routine:
A 6.30
E 6.45
A 7.15
S 8.45-10.45
E 10.50-11.10
A 11.10-12.45
S 12.45-3.00 (woke in middle but re-settled with my help)
E 3-3.25
A 3.25-4.45
S 5-5.30
A 5.30-7
E 7-7.30
S 7.30
DF 11 (150mls)

Thanks so much x

[Bryony]

Hi there!

First of all - don't be tempted to try solids - it can make things a whole lot worse if you start this young without a good medical reason - and I really don't think that hunger is the issue here.

Second - ditto leaving him to cry - but I know you don't need telling that one!

Now - those A times - his first A time is 2hrs 15 mins, the rest are 2hrs - but if you think he's fine with that slightly longer one first thing that's fine. A 30 min catnap means either OT or overtsimulated, or both - so I would try putting him down a bit earlier next time. however I think the main issue is that he had a whopping 2hrs A time after only a 30 min nap - you want a much shorter A time after a short nap - I would try for 1.5hrs max. That would also give you a bit nearer to a 12hr day and a 12hr night which is what most LOs need at his age

What do you do to resettle him, do you think it's anything he's getting to like too much?  While you don't want to leave him to cry, you dont' want to make it too nice (milk, cuddles...) either.

HTH

I'm on holiday tomorrow for a week so might not be able to check in - Nicola will be around though and I will see how you are getting on when I get back!

xx



Bryony xx