Did I do the right things tonight?

[monopod]

I've recently been battling NWs in my nearly 19-week old and today I made a couple of changes in an effort to determine what their root cause is - moving to a 4h routine and dumping the dummy. 4h routine - he seemed to do fine on this, with A time around the 2h mark, and we got a 2h nap out of him this morning. Naps for the rest of the day were a little wonky as we were out, but I managed to get him down for a slightly longer late afternoon nap (as he'd only had 30 mins earlier in the PM). With respect to the dummy we don't actually use it all the time, and he has regularly settled himself, but I felt that we were starting to have some problems and wanted to get rid before it really became a prop, and today seemed to go well - he settled completely independently for all his naps at home and I managed to get him down for the night by shh-patting.

He woke again around the 1.5 hour mark after going to bed, and I managed to resettle him with a brief shh-pat in his cot. But then he woke after a further half-hour and then all hell broke loose  He just would not stop crying and I was determined not to use the dummy even if it hadn't yet become a prop, so I tried shh-patting/PU/PD (I'm not entirely sure about the difference?? I was picking him up and shh-patting him, repeating 'it's all right, sweetheart, it's only sleepytime, you're ok' etc. and putting him down once he had calmed down, only to have to repeat the whole thing about 4-5 times (30mins or so) - eventually it was time for his 'dream' feed and DH is upstairs giving that now.

We never used to have so many problems with NWs and I don't know if I did the right things tonight. I don't know what is causing the NWs and I guess in the back of my head, although I know there is no magic wand, I had hoped that by moving to the 4h routine tonight might be a little better... instead it's started out even worse!

Maybe I still haven't got his final A time right (it always seems to end up longer than it should) - could that be causing the problems on its own (OT)??

I need a hug

 

[debo620]

marking. I am battling every 2hr night wakings right now with my 18 week old. maybe its developmental?

ssh-patt--you are soothing them.
pupd-they are having to self sooth.

[monopod]

So I was doing shh-pat then? I've read the PU/PD chapter in BWSAYP but I must confess I'm still none the wiser! Must be the sleep deprivation

Last night was horrible. After the crying fit before his feed at 10.40pm there were another couple of NWs before I fed him at 3.40am, and then he cried every half-hour from about 4am and needed soothing DH was helping me out with night duty, bless him, so I was spared from having to get up each time, but I still woke up each time. Then LO decided to wake up at 6.20am for the day - mind you, I had wanted him to wake up anyway as we need to go to church later and this timing will work out pretty well, but I clearly hadn't factored in how steamrollered I am now. I feel so bad because I'm just leaving him on his playmat to his own devices at the moment - I can't face having to pay attention to him (that sounds terrible doesn't it?)

If it's developmental I hope he gets on with the development quick! He's recently learnt to roll over (front to back and is getting there with back to front and has nearly found his feet, and is grabbing lots of things. He's also doing all manner of weird stuff like pelvic tilts (very funny when he's on his playmat, not so funny when you're trying to fasten his nappy)) and making all manner of new bizarre noises. I suppose all the increased mobility and vocal development could throw him for a loop, couldn't it? Otherwise I'm still in the dark as to where I'm going wrong

[Lex444]

Hugs. Four to six months ... golly. That was hell. I feel like it was 'Nam and I'm having flashbacks. We had awful periods from 0-2 months, 4-6 months and now my son is 7.5 months and we're in a good bit. I'm expecting another crash at around 8-10 months, judging by the past!

Developmental. Yes. Something else? Probably, but I never figured it out. You sound like you did everything you possibly could. Hang in there. It does pass!

[bzerk5]

I have a friend with a 19 wk old, great sleeper, etc, and started nw's and 45 min naps when he learned to roll front to back.  He'd roll over and not be able to get back, which wasn't great since he's a tummy sleeper!!!  When she'd turn him back over, he'd laugh and try to play the game, rolling over again, etc.  Needless to say, she was frustrated!  Anyway, he's now 21 weeks and a couple days ago he learned to roll back to front, and all the sleeping problems disappeared!  He's once again on 12 hour nights and 2 hour naps...  Good boy.  Developmental, I'd say so...   

[debo620]

yes sounds more like ssh-patt

ssh-patt---you try to do as much in the crib as possible and only PU if really frantic and then do ssh-ptt on shoulder and put down when calm....personally I usually dont PU because it doesn't help.

pupd-you pU and put down before they are calm.

[monopod]

Thank you to all of you I'm not going insane after all; there is light at the end of the tunnel Deborah - thanks for that explanation of PUPD! I understand now...

I will hang in there! Today was another day of no dummy so I think I will soon be able to discount at least dummy addiction as a possible contributor to our sleeping difficulties...

I wonder why it is that he is going down so well for his naps but settling him for the evening is so difficult

[debo620]

are you doing a catnap??

my little guy seems to only be able to handle a very short A time after the last catnap..

so if the catnap is 40mins--he is back in bed like 45-50min later.

[monopod]

I am trying to do the catnap, yes, though haven't quite got things sorted as I'm still attempting to get his final A time right! On the 3.5h EASY I kept having problems with him waking early from naps and then there not being quite enough time to fit in the CN, although now that we've moved to the 4h EASY I am hoping that things will work out a little better on the nap front. I know that of late that final A time has been way too long, and know that this could also be another possible reason for his NWs, esp. the wakings 1-2 hours after he's gone to bed. I am working on it though! One difficulty is that his sleepy signs seem much less reliable in the evening for some reason...

What are your son's A times during the rest of the day like?

Tonight my little guy did a catnap in the car from 5.10 to 5.40 and he was in bed at 6.50/6.55 (already a big improvement on previous days where he was ending up with a final A time of 2 hours like the rest of his day) - took him 25 mins to fall asleep with shh-pat (in the day he's been falling asleep independently within 10 minutes) and then he woke crying 10 mins later (quick shh-pat got him down again). This happened yesterday as well, and I'm expecting further wake-ups 1 - 2 hours from now. There are a number of variables on the go at the moment though so I think I may just have to grit my teeth and ride out the week first to try and discount things like the dummy (currently Day 2 sans dummy), and also allow a bit of time for the new 4h routine to bed in properly. Will be at home virtually all of next week so it will be a good time to observe and not let outings throw him off course

Sorry, I am chronically longwinded 

[*Nicola*]

Monopod ...

Couple of quick thoughts as I am just on briefly:

1) Frequent NWs in the hours after bedtime are usually OT related.  If the last A time is too long then this is likely to be the culprit.  I would aim to have him asleep by the 2 hour mark, so that he is not OT by the time you start pat/shh etc.  If you can't get him to take a catnap then bring bedtime way forward to compensate. 

2) If he is waking 10 mins after he is settling then I would advise you to stay with him a bit longer to make sure he is settled.  That way you won't have to go in and out and in and out all evening.  As he gets better at self settling you can gradually withdraw and reduce the help you give him.

3) Consistency is the key So decide on your plan of action and stick to it.  If you are doing some pat/shh and some PU/PD then LO is possibly confused as to what's happening. PU/PD should only be used as a tool for sleep training when nothing else has worked.  So I would give pat/shh a good go and see how you get on.  PU/PD can't be used with the dummy so this may explain why you didn't see results before. 

[monopod]

Hi Nicola, thanks for your post I don't *think* I was doing both shh-pat and PU/PD - I was just confused as to which I was actually doing as I wasn't sure what the difference was (as I was picking up and shh-patting him while carrying him, then putting him back down once he was calm). It seems it was shh-pat all along (as Deborah says above with PUPD you are not necessarily waiting until they are calm to put them down again, yes?)

I did think that OT was one of the reasons for the recent frequent NWs but wasn't sure about the extent to which I could attribute them to this, as he has definitely been OT at bedtime in the past but we never used to have these NW problems, IYSWIM? I will continue to work on it! (ditto re. the staying with him - I usually do stay in the room until I am sure he is properly settled but he fooled me this time )

Figuring out LOs can be a real challenge!

[debo620]

tell me about it!

my little guys A times are all over the place----I cant quite figure them out..

right now we are still on a 3hr EASY, although he is 4.5months old.
his A times are just too short...seems as though even if i keep him up an etxra 5minutes, he'll end up taking an extra 20min (so like 40min) to settle and ends up way OT..

so this is us right now...
wake about 7
in bed for 1hr10min later and usually asleep by the 1hr30min mark---then he'll sleep 1hr30min or so
if a good nap then in bed for 1hr20min  later...and usually this one is shorter 45min or so
third nap--in bed for 1hr10min later and hopefully he'll sleep 1hr30min (if he wakes midway then I can usually extend it)
and then 40min nap around 1hr45min later (5:30pm or so)
bed for 7/7:15--hopefully asleep by 7:30ish.

honeslty don't know how we will get to a 4hr EASY.

[*Nicola*]

Hi Nicola, thanks for your post I don't *think* I was doing both shh-pat and PU/PD - I was just confused as to which I was actually doing as I wasn't sure what the difference was (as I was picking up and shh-patting him while carrying him, then putting him back down once he was calm). It seems it was shh-pat all along (as Deborah says above with PUPD you are not necessarily waiting until they are calm to put them down again, yes?)

I did think that OT was one of the reasons for the recent frequent NWs but wasn't sure about the extent to which I could attribute them to this, as he has definitely been OT at bedtime in the past but we never used to have these NW problems, IYSWIM? I will continue to work on it! (ditto re. the staying with him - I usually do stay in the room until I am sure he is properly settled but he fooled me this time )

I have found that OT signs can change as they grow up.  Also as he gets older and becomes more involved in his environment you might find that he is also getting a tad OS as well as OT. 

Deb ...  2 hour NW's/waking each sleep cycle usually indicate a prop issue or OT.  Have a look here and see if anything stands out ...

 http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=52878.0

[monopod]

Nicola, thanks for the reminder about OS!

I am  Yesterday - get this - WE HAD NO NWS (apart from one at 4.30am because he was hungry)!!! He didn't wake before or during his DF and although he cried out around 1.30am it was just a sleep cry and he went back to sleep. I kept waking up to see if he was still alive

The differences were that:
- Day 2 of no dummy (looking at my logs I can see that it was also quicker putting him to bed for the evening last night compared to the night before)
- Also Day 2 of a 4h EASY, which he seems to have taken to very well so far (he's definitely ok with the 4h feeding interval and is generally fine with a 2h A time, although this morning he got tired earlier (after an unusually good night's rest though, what's up with that? He was also a little more difficult to settle than he has been, though that could be because I waited a bit too long to put him down because I was on a long-distance call and wasn't paying enough attention to his sleepy cues)
- Managed a shorter A time before bed, mainly because the 4h routine works much better and his naps are better as a result (ended up being just under 2h as compared to 2h+ for the past couple of days)

I'm not sure which the main reason is but you can be sure I'll be trying to replicate whatever it was today (although yesterday wasn't exactly textbook in that he had a really good nap in the AM (2h) but then 3 catnaps in the PM because we were out! We'll see...)

Deb, I will keep my fingers crossed for you! I know that other people on these boards didn't get to a 4h EASY until 5+ months so maybe it is just a matter of waiting for your LO to be ready?

[*Nicola*]

Great news!!

I think you will find that loosing the dummy makes a MASSIVE difference to those regular NW's x