Shh/pat to extend naps - when will it stop?

[brenda2]

sounds like she is just a short napper.  i would cut yourself some slack.  you are doing the best you can for her and she is just hard wirde to short nap, some los are just that way.  she may grow out of it as she gets older - maybe between 6-8 mo she will start to do longer naps on her own.  just keep the A times short until that time and keep offering more naps to prevent OT.  as long as her nights are not too bad don't worry about it - easier said than done.

maybe stopp the patting when you put her in the crib and just lay a hand on her until she is asleep, it may be easier to wean her off that than the patting.

[huby]

Thanks Brenda. That was just what I needed to hear. I keep tyring stuff, and getting myself into a tis when it doesn't work and end up feeling guilty that LO is tired and grumpy still. I spend most of the day getting her ready for naps and shh patting (sometimes works v quickly when she's not OT). It had stopped me going out and has stopped me developing any sort of routine for her apart from bedtime ....
She sleeps so well at nights. I do thee laying a hand on her bit too, but she still wakes when I remove it. How do you wean them off needing that?
And thanks again Brenda, you're support is really helping me.
I need to realise she could grow out of this in a few months time. Gosh, no one tells you motherhood is THIS hard, but am still enjoying it.
x

[brenda2]

so apart from the short naps is the main problem she has a hard time falling asleep without your help?  what happens if you just do the winddown, shh pat or rock in your arms until she is relaxing and sleepy and then lie her down and just leave the room?  will she start to cry?  if so then you would go in, shh pat until she stops crying and then leave the room.  or you could also shh pat until she stops crying but is still awake and then just stop the patting and leave your hand on her  back for a minute or so and then take it off and stand back and see what happens.  i think you need to do less for her and see what happens, if she cries a little bit that is ok.  you need to give her the opportunity to calm herself down and fall asleep on her own.

[huby]

Thanks Brenda. Well she can put herself to sleep at night ok, and I've seen her wake up but self soothe herself back to sleep. Naps are different. At the mo I have to shhh pat while in my arms and transfer to cot. Sometimes at this point she cries and is wide awake, others she's ok with it. I then continue to pat and shhh, and sometimes rub her forehead. I have tried just laying a hand on her forehead and one on her chest for the moment she falls asleep without any patting (just shhh sounds) or any rubbing either.
I have tried to take my hand off just before she's alseep but she jolts awake and starts to cry. Other times she'll let me keep my hand there for the v last bit before she falls asleep but if I take it off too soon she wakes up with a jolt and cries.
I am not sure how long to leave her crying for? I tried to leave her for five mins y'day to see if she could resettle and she screamed and cried so hard she managed to turn herself round in the cot (iver never seen her do this even even on the floor) and was  laying in it sideways and had got stuck!
Thanks v much - it's just that little last bit before sleep hits I'm having problems with...

[brenda2]

well you do need to have her A time right or else it will be harder for her to settle to sleep by herself.  i would shh pat in your arms and then lie her down awake as you are doing and then try to just lay your hand on her rather than shh pat.  if she cries then do shh pat but slow it down when she stops crying and then just stop altogether and just leave your hand on her.  start again if she starts crying and repeat until she is asleep.  then you gradually help her less and less.  i wouldn't leave her to scream by herswelf but leaving her to fuss is ok.

[huby]

agreed about the activity time. She got up at 5.30am this morning because of a soaking wet nappy and couldn't get her back to sleep so have had to put her in the sling so she gets a half decent nap today. Am shattered already and it's only 9.15am!
Thanks v much for the tips, I will try your suggestions later today and report back. When I asked a sleep consultant for advice they said I should adopt PUPD as i will be most effective for her age but I don't think she's old enough...please i've worked towards using shh pat, so surly it pays tp just lessen the help I give her rather than change techniques?
By the way - I would never leave her to scream but how do I know what 'fussing' is. Is it crying - if so, how hard?

[brenda2]

how old is she now?
i agree to keep with the technique that you have been using and works for her.  pupd is only to be used as a last resort anyway - even those who use it always try to calm with shh pat first and then only do pupd when the baby is crying too hard and not calming down with the patting.

fussing would be not hard crying, not full blown i need you in here now crying.  mantra crying is also ok, i find it hard to know exactly what it is but a  cry that kind of sounds like it is deescalating rather than escalating or if it has a whaa whaa whaa rhythem to it is may be a mantra cry which is a soothing kind of cry and best to leav e them to it.

[huby]

hi there,
she's 13 weeks today. I have been trying to do less shh patting while she's in my arms and more while she's in the cot but she wakes right up and cries and cries. She doesn't go back to sleep no matter how much I shhh pat unless I pick her up again, calm her down, and try again and again. Used to work well, but it's like she's caught on and wants to be in my arms for the whole nap. still, she does still sleep in her cot, but the naps seem to be getting shorter - at least today, and she was so much harder to put down and get to sleep at night tonight (never happened before)
I really hope she grows out of these short naps and I can't develop any sort of routine at all with her as there's no set time when she gets tired - i.e. sometimes its 45 mins, sometimes 1 hr 15 / 20.
I'm worried that if she's not in a routine she'll get worse and be impossible to deal with in a couple of months.

x

[brenda2]

so she's under 4 mo...i would stick to shh pat.  pupd is really for 4 mo and older, younger than that and they get a bit too overstimulated with all the picking up.  it's ok to pick her up at this age if she is really crying hard and pat/comfort in your arms and then completely calm her down before putting her back down.  just make sure you put her back down before she goes to sleep.  you don't want her falling asleep in your arms.

it sounds like you are trying your best.  honestly you are doing everyting right, you can't make her sleep if she doesn't want to or is too tired or not tired enough or just wired for short naps.  best to accept it and avoid the ap.  this is really what will serve you best as she gets older.  if she learns to go to sleep independently without relying on any props then as she gets older the rest will come.   if however she is reliant on you then she and you will have a much harder time with it.

at her age 45 min even after a short nap may be a bit too short...maybe she wasn't tired enough that time to go down easily?  her A time (time from eyes open to eyes shut) should be about 1.5 hours first thing and after a long nap, maybe as short as an hour if after a short nap.  it's all trial and error i'm afraid as all los are so different.

[huby]

Thanks again for your support. She had three naps today of 45 mins and an earlier bedtime. It leaves v little time to grab some food for myself, yet alone cook anything as inbetween bath, changes, nappy change, winding and feeding, winding down for sleep - there's little time for anything.
I really, really hope she starts to sleep longer soon as am finding this exhausting and also really restrictive. There's no ryhme or reason to a time in the day when she gets tired, so I can do any sort of routine, which is supposed to be bad isn't it?
AM keeping with the shhh pat, but she cries when in cot, so pick up and try again and she eventually settles - perhaps on second or third go. I have tried placing a hand on her without patting at the point just before she goes to sleep - and sneak in to extend the nap in the same way but it never works. Sigh.
Will my baby grow out of this eventually or will she continue like this for months?

[brenda2]

i know the short naps are hell aren't they.  we have the same issues here but they are starting (knock wood) to get better.  i can now extend a bit more when she wakes early and in the last week or so she has done a few long naps on her own.

they say that babies figure out night sleep from 0-3 mo and day sleep from 3-6 mo so in theory by about 6 mo the short naps should be getting better.  my lo is almost 6 mo and it is just now starting to get a little bit better, but we still do have more short naps than i would like and the long naps i do get it is because i work at it (go in and shh pat when she wakes etc). 

yes, she will eventually grow out of the short naps but yes it may be months before she does so.  i would say most los stop the short napping somewhere between 6 and 9 mo, often when they drop down to 2 naps.

i don't know if she will stop the short naps if you don't work at it...probably but it may take longer.  my friend had a short napper and after trying to work at it she just stopped trying altogether and accepted the short naps.  her baby grew out of the short naps around 10 mo and started napping longer on her own, but really has never been a good napper or good night sleeper, probably because the mom never really worked at it.

some people have had luck with set nap times, but i think this is for older babies.  i always found the counting A times to be a better way to go about it.  our days are never exactly the same either due to the short naps.  i do keep feeds at about the same time most days and i keep the A time the same - 2.5 hours after a long nap and about 2 hours after a short nap.  even bedtime is not the same because her last nap is never at the same time - our bedtime is between 6:20 and 7:20 depending on the last nap.  ideally i want it at 7. 

it will get better as she gets older i promise!  and then she will be 2 and start fighting you all over again!!!

[~Sara~]

I agree with Brenda   It will take work on your end, and right now, she's so little and naps so much that, yes, it seems like you don't have any time for yourself.  It gets better as they get on fewer naps.  DH and I literally worked on helping DS transition past the 45 minute mark from ~3 months until just a couple of weeks ago.  It seriously has only been in the past couple of days that he's done 1.5h naps all on his own, day after day.  I know we're seeing these results because we tried as best as we could.  I can't say that we made it happen, but when he got ready developmentally to nap better, I think our efforts helped him get there a bit faster.

Seriously, I remember being in his room at nap time for all but 40 minutes (out of a 2h nap), and just wondering how I was supposed to do anything!

At this point, it's hard to say if your LO is a short napper...I'd be hesitant to leave it at that since she's just now 3 months old.  I'd keep trying...I really promise that it gets better.  And if it does turn out that she's a short napper, you'll learn how to adjust her day for that (like Brenda mentioned).

Also as Brenda mentioned, when your day feels all over the place, you can at least keep her feeds 3 hours apart and fill in A and S around those.

Since things are still hard for you, maybe we can glean something from your routine?  If you want, you could post that and see if there's anything that pops out?  Couldn't hurt

[huby]

well have been battling ALL day with naps. She got up at 5am, took me ages to get her back to sleep again. She got up again at 7.20am, and had breakfast.
I then put her down for a nap when she was tired and she fell asleep within 10 mins in her cot with me shh and patting. I tried to extend nap...failed miserably, by which point it was nearly 11am and time for her bottle.
Then a short play and time again for her nap - by this point it's about quarter to 12, and she's tired. Battled until 1.16 to get her to sleep - she would doze off only to wake again after five or ten mins.
My husband has now taken her where he'll try to get her to sleep on his shoulder. The nap thing is getting worse not better! AND she's waking up even earlier in the mornings now!!
I'm shattered as there's no time to catch-up on naps while she's down as she won't nap.

[huby]

By the way - can anyone help me sort out a routine properly? Do I follow her cues and put her down at the first sign of tiredness or put her down each day a designated time after her feeds?
And if i follow cues, it's different every day. Sigh
x

[~Sara~]

Yes, the routine will look different every day.  It's more about going from the time she wakes up, then she has roughly the same A time in each EAS cycle, then she eats about 3 hours apart...that kind of thing.  Your days can be "off" by 30 minutes compared to the day before or after...and that's completely fine   For us, when DS was 3 months, some days he would wake at 7, some at 7:15, some 7:20.  We never let him sleep past 7:30, though.

At her age, most LOs are doing something like this (please remember, this isn't a schedule, but it shows how the routine repeats itself throughout the day):

Awake at 7 and eat
S: asleep by 8:30 at the latest (note: this assumes your LO can do 1h30 of A time, but she should be able to do between 1h20-1h30 by now)
E/A: 10
S: by 11:30
E/A: 1
S: by 2:30
E/A: 4
S: catnap for about 40 minutes between 5-6
After she wakes up here, do bedtime routine and feed
S: by 7:30 (maybe 7 if she needs it)
DF: between 10 and 11

Looking at what you posted, it sounded like she was only awake for 45 minutes (11-11:45).  I know she was probably yawning, but sometimes babies just yawn   I had to stop relying on DS's yawns so much and go more by how well he napped.  Once I figured out, oh, he could do 1h25 minutes and get a good nap afterward, then I started getting all his A times to that.  I never let him go to sleep more than 10 minutes early for his naps.  So, it's kind of working backwards.  Also, by knowing how much A time he could do, that allowed to see his REAL sleepy cues.  Now I know that is he's constantly fussy, doesn't want to be held any other way than me standing up with him, then he's getting ready for a nap.

Do I follow her cues and put her down at the first sign of tiredness or put her down each day a designated time after her feeds?

You'll get better at following her cues, and while her naps will be about the same time most days, set nap times are not good for young babies.

I think once you get her on a more consistent routine, that you'll see her nap issues improve.  Or if not, then the advice we give will be more helpful because we'll have a more solid framework to go by

Hope that helps a bit.