How to help with hunger and EW??????

[LaurieJ]

What do you do to help with EW???  My DD is 10 1/2 months old and wakes up very hungry but it is not always at the same time...could be anywhere from 4ish to 6ish.  She goes to bed between 7:15-7:30. When she wakes up early I go in, don't say anything and don't make eye contact, lay her right back down and give her her blankie and then walk out.  Sometimes she'll go back to sleep for 20 min. or so but then wake right back up.  I try not to feed her until 6:30.  But then she is definitely hungry and tired due to the EW.  I've read that after this they should be up for the day so they don't confuse it with a night feed.  But then she yawns quite a bit and is of course tired.  The other 2 mornings I put her back to sleep after feeding her and she slept until 8:15 and was VERY happy and well rested.  So my husband thinks this is what she needs.  But I've read that then they confuse why if they wake up at any other time in the night they can't eat vs. eating at 6ish and then going back to sleep...  I've tried very slowly (even by 5 min. increments) pushing back the time I feed her in the AM but she screams because she is hungry! And I've also read that you shouldn't lay them back down one time and then the next time get them up to feed them...?  I've also tried putting her to bed earlier (more like 6:45) but then she just wakes up even earlier.  Side note that I think may have to do with this - I'm also going to post on the BFing board about her possibly switching to 3 nursings a day rather than 4 because she's not eating a really good feeding before bed which may be why she's waking up so hungry.  So maybe if her BFings were spread out more she'd take a better feed right before bed. 

I don't know...    

[LaurieJ]

The last 2 mornings she has woken up at 5:30ish and is obviously hungry.  I have done like I said before with laying her back down and she'll wake up about 20 min. later then 10 min. later and then I'll feed her around 6:15.  I'm wondering if I should give her a very little bit of EBM right when she wakes up to try and take the edge off of her hunger and see how/if long she sleeps after that.  If I give her a full feed she sleeps way too long so I think I'll try giving her a very little bit tomorrow AM if she wakes up at 5:30 and see how that goes.   

Any suggestions would be wonderful!!! 

[Bryony]

Can you post your routine for us?  There are lots of other reasons for EW other than hunger - see http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=87109.0

I'm also going to move you over to General Sleep

xx

[LaurieJ]

Her routine has been like this (longer morning before AM nap due to EW)...
(EW)
6:15 bf and up for day
7:15 solids
9:40-11:00 nap (she usually naps at 10:00 but has had a hard time making it due to the EW)
11:00 bf
12:15 solids
snack
small bf before nap - she's just switching from 4 to 3 bf's so we're bumping the 11:00 bf later and dropping this bf
2:30-4:00 nap
5:00 solids
6:45 bf
7:15 bed

**I realized after my initial post that around this age (10-11 months) is when they often start trying to switch from 2 to 1 naps and their A time starts stretching out at the 11 month point also.  SO - I've been thinking that maybe this has to do with it and that she's needing a little more A time now possibly.  Another thing I also read was that some LOs are ok with 11 night hours rather than 12...BUT she still seems somewhat tired after her EW.  So if she needs more A time then do I need to shorten her AM nap to more around 1 hour?  Sometimes her naps are even longer (closer to 2 hours).  So, should I try to keep the nap times to AM around 1 hour and PM around 1 1/2 hours to help extend her A time a bit?

[LaurieJ]

Yesterday she took a long AM nap (over 2 hours...I ended up waking her up) and refused the PM nap.  She was very tired by a little after 4 and took about a 45 min. nap MAYBE.  She still seemed quite tired though so we put her to bed at 6:45 (1/2 hour earlier than normal) and then she woke up 1/2 hour earlier this morning for her EW (a little after 5am compared to her recent 5:30am EW).  SO, what I did this morning at 5am was try to give her a little EBM from her sippy...she took a very little bit of that and then I layed her back down.  I think she went to sleep for about 1/2 hour and woke crying again at 5:40. So, I bf her on one side and layed her back down again and she is still sleeping (it's 7:15am here).  I wasn't sure if I should do that or not, but otherwise she definitely seems more tired than normal and doing the keep her awake until her normal nap time has not seemed to help at all with her EW and that's what I've been trying to do for weeks now.

   

[*Nicola*]

Laurie,

Can you give her the first nap no earlier than her usual A time.  Keep that nap short and then go for a good A time and good 2nd nap?  This is what worked for us when DD was EWing and was taking a long AM nap to make up for her missed sleep.

[LaurieJ]

So you mean give her her AM nap at her normal time (around 10:00) and keep it short (like 1 hour?) and then have her 2nd A time longer (like 4 hours?) and then try for a longer PM nap (around 1 1/2 - 2 hours?)? Just want to make sure I'm understanding right   I've been keeping her up after feeding her (around 6:15...after trying to put off the feed and up time after her EW of around 5:30am) so then her first A time ends up being quite long.  I've been doing that for a while and it wasn't helping her EW at all - BUT, I wasn't keeping the first nap short (like 1 hour) so I will try that!   And then try for a longer A time before 2nd nap...?

I'm also wondering what to do after the EW?  Should I feed her right away (like at 5:30ish) and keep her up from that point on or try to put off the feed and get up time as long as possible (which is what I've been doing - trying to put it off until 6:15ish which is still early)?

[LaurieJ]

*Bumping* for some hopeful help on if I should be keeping her up after her EW (she woke at 6am this morning so that is better and even good if she sticks with 6:00 if that is just when she wakes up...!) and then keep her awake until her "normal" nap time of 10:00 OR should I be putting her down for a nap after 3 1/2 hours of wake time and then have the middle A time longer?  Then I'm trying to keep her AM nap short (1 hr.) and hope for a good PM nap like Nicola said.  If she has an early wake of 6ish then is it ok if I aim to put her to bed at 7ish if she has good naps since she seems to always do 11 hours of night sleep?

[*Nicola*]

Sorry  Laurie,

I'm terrible for rechecking posts that aren't on my board.

Ok lets see ...

I think whatever you try you need to do it for 4-5 days consistently to give it a chance to work.  Keep a sleep diary so you can see any patterns etc.

Personally, I would keep her up until as near to her normal nap time as possible.  The reason for this is to prevent her using the first nap as an extention of (missed) night sleep.  Some babies do better with this than others, some just get too tired.  Then I would give her a short AM nap to prevent her making up for lost sleep here and prevents this nap from robbing from PM nap.  PM is important for good night sleep so I would encourage you to give her a good solid PM nap

Then I would go for a normal A time for the 2nd A.  Not longer than usual but not shorter either.  As she has only had a short AM nap you might find she needs to go down a bit earlier, but prob will be fine. Hopefully, because she has only had a short AM nap *and* a normal second A she will take a good PM nap, seeing her thru to bedtime well *and* setting her in good stead for a good night.

You might find that she struggles with staying up from EW til normal nap time AND having a short nap.  Watch her cues and the clock and play it by ear.

With regard to the EW and feeds, does she take a good feed if you offer it right away?  Does she then go back to sleep right away or are you still stuck with the EW?  If she goes back to sleep I would treat it as a NW and a NF and then gradually reduce what you give her/move it nearer to morning.

OK .. that's my tuppence worth from my own experiences!  Hopefully others will chip in too x

[LaurieJ]

Thank you, Nicola!

She does really well making it to her normal nap time even with the EW (she is angel/textbook temperment so I don't know if that affects it?).  Yesterday and today she has refused the afternoon nap.  Yesterday I didn't wake her for her first nap and she refused the PM nap of course (because she had a good AM nap) and she did really well until bedtime. But today I woke her to start trying the 1 hour AM nap and then hope for a good PM nap.  But, again, she refused the 2nd nap.  She seems TOTALLY fine (not seeming tired) and it's about 1 1/2 hours away from bedtime! So, even though she is refusing the PM nap should I still wake her up after 1 hour and hope she takes a PM nap (trying it for 5 days) risking OT setting in or is it possible that she really may be ready for 1 nap?!?

In reading the FAQs and sleep gone wonky boards it talked about 11 months being TOO early for 1 nap.  Why is that?  My DD isn't quite 11 months yet (will be on Nov. 7 - so soon) so I'm figuring it is way too early for her to really be on one nap.  BUT - it SURE seems like that's what she's trying to do.  And these last couple of days with her refusing her PM nap she has done fine and even slept 1/2 hour longer last night (after having one good nap during the day).  I guess I just don't want to push the 2 naps and get her into OT craziness if she really would do ok on 1 nap iykwim!!  BUT - I also know that I need to try it for 5 days before judging how she does. 

So I should just put her to bed as needed for the night (especially if having woke her from AM nap and then her refusing PM nap!).

Also, Nicola - with the morning feed she will take a very good, full feed right away and she'd go right back to sleep until 8am or later.  This morning she woke up at 6 and I fed her and had her up for the day and she did great making it until her normal nap time of 10:00. 

[*Nicola*]

Laurie

Before moving to one nap I would do everything you can to get her to take 2 naps.  Otherwise, often they do well on one nap for a week or more but then get really OT and it gets crazy.

Have you tried shortening her AM nap even more, to say 45 mins? 

[fludo]

I'd try more solids in the evening, particularly carbs to see her through the night, as she's obviously waking up due to hunger as much as anything else that might be going on with naps.

[LaurieJ]

So DD woke at 4:40am and was quite hungry.  She didn't take a good feed before bed and I've noticed that this of course seems to have an impact on her waking up hungry.  I fed her on one side only and put her back to bed but then she woke after about 25 min. still hungry.  So then I fed her on the other side and she slept until 6:35 (with a 7:30 bed time - that's 11 hours for her actual wake up which is normal for her). 

She ate quite a bit of solid food yesterday as well (more than normal) so I thought either she's sleep well maybe or she's needing to eat more now. 

I'm going to try pumping so I can treat this wake up like a NW and try to wean her off of this early feed.  Some mornings she does well sleeping all the way through her 11 hours and it seems like that is when she has a good feed before bed (which I'm working on - she just dropped to 3 bf's). 

It just seems that when she does sleep all the way until this early wake time it's definitely because she's hungry.  So I guess I don't know what else to do but try to wean her off of it like I did with her NW feeds (slowly diluting EBM).