Need help with naps please please - 7.5 months

[deckchariot]

{{{{{hugs}}}}}}}  I hope the night's not as bad as you fear.  Well done on being creative and going to the airport to watch the planes - it's always better to get out of the house than be in with an OT bub who won't sleep (at least that's what I find)

[Tobysmum]

Oh yes, certainly better out than in.  I was so tired, the only way to keep me awake and not grumpy was to drive somewhere and see my delighted toddlers face at seeing some planes!
Off to bed soon.

[deckchariot]

get some sleep while you can

[Tobysmum]

Well, last night was surprisingly good (he didn't go down particularly easy and was most likely OT after a total daytime sleep of 1hr 5 mins split between a 25, 17 and 20 min nap!) - he didn't wake at all until 12.30 (I offered both sides but he only wanted one side - 15 min feed) and then he woke at 4.00 (took one side) and then he woke at 5am, cried for a while, I just left him to be honest and I think he went back to sleep.  I figured it was too early to get him up, I didn't want to feed him again due to trying to get rid of that prop anyway and I was too tired to do pu/pd (very lazy of me perhaps).  Anyway, he went back to sleep.  I don't know whether that was the right thing to do or not.  I went into his room at about 7.15 (as I overslept!) and he was awake when I went in.  I don't know when he actually woke up.
I had to take my toddler to nursery this morning so Gus didn't go down until 9.19 and was asleep at 9.32 (wasn't at all happy about going to sleep!).  I think he was OT.  If he'd woken at 7.00 it would have been about a 2hr 30 min A time but I suspect he may have woken earlier than that. 
I am predicting a 25 min nap again - grrr!  Perhaps he'll surprise me.

QUESTION:
So ladies, what A time do you think I should do if he takes a 25 min 1st nap.  I did 2hrs 18 mins yesterday which gave another 25 min nap but the other day I did a 2hr 15 min nap and it gave a 1hr 15 min nap!!!  Remember, usually his first nap is between 2hrs 30 mins - 2hrs 45 mins.

OK - just as I've finished writing this he's just woken from his 1st nap - 25 MINUTES - as predicted.  Grrrr.  So help on when to put him down next would be good.  I am off to a coffee morning for a couple of friends who are leaving the island - hopefully I can get out of there in time to get the next nap in.

Thanks!
Louisa

[deckchariot]

It seems as though the 25 min nap is OT (whereas when he naps 30, you've got a good plan).  What A time are you using for that 2nd A time if he takes a 30 min nap?  That's the A time to focus on - I'd shorten that one, probably by at least 15-30 min, depending on how Gus is doing.  So if you've done around 2 hrs 15 with varying results, I'd try between 2 hr and 2 hrs 15, again, depending on how Gus is doing.  It's not an exact science, and each day will be a bit different - so you want to have a general A time "window" in your mind, and then watch to see how Gus is doing.

glad the night was not as bad as you feared!

[lilac83]

After such a short OT nap I would aim for around 2 hours. I think 2.5 was somewhat working after a 30 minute nap for awhile, correct? Enjoy your coffee!

[Tobysmum]

Here's an update from yesterday and today.  Seems like the 25-30 min nap monster is back for the 1st nap - I'm not quite sure why as I thought I got it right today but he took a while to go to sleep.  These short 1st naps are really annoying as it means that Gus and Toby nap separately as Gus has to take the 2nd nap so early!

Yesterday
Woke - I thought about 7.00am.
1st Nap 9.32 - 9.57  25 min nap after approx 2hrs 30 min A time (but perhaps he woke earlier than I thought)
2nd Nap 12.25 - 1.55  1hr 30 min nap after 2hrs 30 min A time (bizarre as the day before he had an OT 25 min nap after 2hr 18 min A time?!)
3rd Nap (Swing) 4.45-5.15  30 min nap after 2hrs 50 min A time.
Sleep approx 6.45pm
NWs 3.30am, had a good feed one side and didn't want anymore - that's it until I heard him at 6.30am.

Today
Woke - I thought he'd woken at 6.30am as that's when we heard him.
1st Nap 9.08 - 9.38  30 min nap after nearly 2hrs 45 mins (I'd put him down at 8.50 and he took a while to go to sleep)
2nd Nap ?  I have to go and get toddler so he probably won't go to sleep until at least 12.15. Praying we don't get an OT nap.  Am going to pick toddler up early so I can get Gus to bed as early as possible.

[Tobysmum]

Just to continue what's happening today - not good. 

Woke - I thought he'd woken at 6.30am as that's when we heard him.
1st Nap 9.08 - 9.38  30 min nap after nearly 2hrs 45 mins (I'd put him down at 8.50 and he took a while to go to sleep)
2nd Nap 12.05 - 12.30  25 min nap after 2hrs 25 min A time.
3rd Nap 1.25 - 1.55  30 min nap - I put him down so soon after the nap before as he seemed soooo tired, nuzzling in my chest, rubbing eyes, playing with his ear etc, so I just had to put him down but just got a 30 min nap.

I guess I'll have to try for a catnap - put him in the swing around 4.00?  Does that sound about right or not?

[deckchariot]

I'm sorry today has been so rough.  {{{{hugs}}}}} Take some deep breaths, and remember that tomorrow is a new day with a clean slate. There are always going to be good days and bad days, and various phases of up and down. It's the nature of the beast, and it's okay. Can I be honest with you? I'm thinking that posting the details every single day is going to drive you crazy much more than it will help you. It's so easy to get caught up in details and get worked up over things that don't really matter in the grand scheme of things. Not that napping doesn't matter, I know it does matter, but when you look at Gus's life overall, this phase of bad naps is really going to be very short in the bigger picture.  We're all here for you and we want to help, but I'm not sure a daily check in is the most helpful. I can't tell you exactly what to do every day, because I don't know Gus and what his needs are specifically. Only you can know that, and trust your gut.

[lilac83]

*Hugs* Gus will tell you when he's ready for that catnap. You know around what time he usually takes it. Have some faith in yourself, you're a great mommy! 

[Tobysmum]

If only Gus would tell me when he's ready for naps, but most of the time he doesn't until it's too late - life would be much easier and we'd probably be in a different boat.

Today was a very weird day - we had 4 naps, none longer than 30 mins!

Woke - I thought he'd woken at 6.30am as that's when we heard him.
1st Nap 9.08 - 9.38  30 min nap after nearly 2hrs 45 mins (I'd put him down at 8.50 and he took a while to go to sleep)
2nd Nap 12.05 - 12.30  25 min nap after 2hrs 25 min A time.
3rd Nap 1.25 - 1.55  30 min nap - I put him down so soon after the nap before as he seemed soooo tired, nuzzling in my chest, rubbing eyes, playing with his ear etc, so I just had to put him down but just got a 30 min nap.
4th Nap 3.50 - 4.10pm - 20 min nap after 1hr 55 min A time.

For the past 3 days we've only had 25/30 min 1st nap and I'm really not sure why.  I did think I  getting his A time right - I am doing nothing different to what I was doing a few days ago when we got a whole load of 1hr 1st naps!

Perhaps posting the details every single day is not good (for you   ) but I guess I do it because the support really helps me and it makes me feel better.  I do realise that I'm perhaps clogging up the boards and you have lots of other people to help - although I also hope that my post may have helped some others out who are having similar issues.

I know that this nap thing isn't going to last forever - I try to tell myself that as I think everyone thinks I'm totally nuts for obsessing about it so much. That said, most of their babies nap fine and sleep through the night, so they have nothing to obsess over!  In some ways I wish I'd never started BW - I don't think it has made it EASY - if anything it makes me over obsess IMO.

Perhaps I'm just searching for the holy grail and I should just accept that he's not a great sleeper and never will be.  My friend who has 6 kids told me that the other day,, "some kids are born good sleepers, and others aren't - and whilst you can put things in place to make the not so good sleepers, sleep, they will never be good sleepers".  I am thinking there is some truth in that. How can two babies be so different when mothered in the same way?

That said, I'd love to say "to hell with it" and stop logging but I can't bring myself to do that!  If I didn't log then I'd be totally lost and I'd still be calculating it in my head (I've never been good at mental arithmetic so that would drive me even more crazy!)  I'm seriously addicted to my logging and I'd be lost without it.

I am sorry that I ask so many questions - I do my best to follow my instincts but he's just not easy to read a lot of the time and that's why I rely on the clock more than BW is about.  I am asking for advice as I'm sure you guys have a lot more experience about dealing with different A times etc and little tricks than I do with this one baby.

The problem is that I don't really have faith in myself since I seem to get it wrong so often.

I guess I'll have to really try and work it out myself.  You guys have been so helpful and as I said, things have improved a lot.  It's just good to have your support as I know you really understand what it's like.

I'm even considering going to set nap times (I tried the set 1st nap a while back but not for long and I think it was too late anyway) - I wonder if that would help regulate things.  Most people I know do set nap times and it seems to work for them.

Anyway, I'm waffling as usual.

I'll be honest in saying, I don't know if I'll be able to cut myself off from this thread, cold turkey, but perhaps I'll wait until Monday to post again!? Need to wean myself off gradually as I've become kind of addicted to it shall we say

Just one question - any thoughts on why we've had a short 1st nap for the last few days?

[eclaire]

I continue to follow and learn...I think a set nap time within 30-45 min is a good idea.  It has generally worked for us but as the moderators have said we still have short nap days.  Today he napped for 30 min. in am but then 2hr30 min at 11 and 30 min cat nap at 4:45.  We have generally naps at 8:30-9:30 depending on wake up and if he has over an hour nap then we go with 1-2pm for Going to sleep.  If he has a 30 min am nap then we know its a 3 nap day and we then go for 11am at then about 3 hours after wake up from the mid day nap.  Because bad nap days are just that. 

But you are obviously a wonderful mom!

[choffmann]

I am no expert.. but could it be possible that he needs longer A times?  My dd is only 6.5 months so we are at different ages, but my dd shows tired signs even if she is not tired... she has to go 3 hrs (on most days) to get a decent nap out of her... if I shorten the A time because i think she is tired... i get a short nap...

maybe if you went with "set" nap times you can do 10am and then 2pm?   that is what i had followed with the kids i didnt use BW with (my first three)...  and that worked for them.... 

You are getting short naps anyways, it may be worth a shot to try something different for a few days... and just "catch him up" if it doesnt...

You are a great mom.... and I understand how you feel when you feel its because you are doing it wrong - because that is how i feel when i get things "wrong"... but try to lighten up on yourself - all LOs are different - all four of mine have their own personalities and I always had to "learn" with them even though I thought i would be an expert by now! 

Christy

[deckchariot]

{{{{{{{{hugs}}}}}}  It's not that we want you to stop posting, we're just trying to help you not be so stressed (and in your own words "obsessed") over Gus's napping.  I think that's what's happening with the daily logs and posts.  All bubs are different - even when they are mothered the same way.  And I'm afraid that Gus is just not going to nap the way Toby did, and I don't want you to get so caught up in that that you miss out on the fun of having Gus and Toby now.  The napping phase is really a short span in Gus's life (and in a few months, he'll be transistioning to one nap anyway).  If you think going to set nap times will help, do it, and throw away your logs.  It looks like Gus is "programmed" for that short am nap, and longer pm nap.  There will be days when it doesn't work like that.  On those days, you just do the best you can.  It's not a matter of getting it wrong or getting it right.  I would encourage you not to think of it in that way - on days that he naps poorly, you didn't do anything wrong.  He just had a day where he napped poorly.  It's not a reflection on you as a mother or on your parenting skills.  Parenting isn't a science, and EASY isn't designed to be a regimented exact schedule - it's a routine, a rhythm to the day - sometimes that rhythm runs more smoothly than others, but it doesn't mean you as the mom are doing it wrong - that's just the way babies are.

We are happy to continue supporting you and encouraging you, but you are Gus's mom, you know him best, and you need to be the one who's establishing his routine  - even though that's going to vary day by day.  So please don't stop posting altogether, I'm just encouraging you to think differently about the way in which you post.  I think you know Gus far better than you give yourself credit for, and you need us far less than you think.  You're a great mom. 

[Tobysmum]

Sorry - can't stay away

Choffman - I have tried longer A times and it seems, and certainly for the past week or so, we've actually been getting a 1hr nap by shortening the A time to between 2hrs 35 mins and 2hrs 45 mins.  Although saying that, the last 4 days that has not been the case!  His napping is just so erratic, it seems that I get different length naps even if I do the same A time - one day it will give me a 1hr nap, another day it will give me a 25/30 min nap!  That's why I'm kind of thinking, maybe we do need to try set nap times to see if that will regulate a few things i.e. nap time, nap length, morning wake up time, bedtime etc.  Or perhaps that's wishful thinking!?

For example, this is a sample of naps we've got for the first nap using almost the same A time (sometimes he took longer to fall asleep that's why we get a slightly longer A time sometimes.
This week for example.
- 2hrs 35 min A time  gave a 1hr 8 min nap (9.40-10.48)
-2hrs 45 min A time gave a 1hr nap (8.55-9.56)
- 2hrs 37 mins A time gave a 1hr 7 min nap (9.08-10.15)
- 2hrs 38 mins A time gave a 30 min nap (9.37-10.03)
- 2hrs 35 mins A time did not give any kind of nap at all until 4hrs 5 min A time! (9.08 - 9.38)

Now you can see why I am going truly crazy with these A times - I get different length naps even with the same A times (and this is just one week - it's like that EVERY week).  Yes we had a few days with 1hr naps for the 1st nap but that was very short lived and I'm kind of thinking it wasn't the norm and something else may have been going on.  It seems more often than not a 30 min nap is standard for him.

So yes, I agree, that for the most part Gus is programmed for a short first nap - but on the days that he does take a longer nap, should I just wake him at the 30 min mark to regulate things?  It just throws everything off with the naps being so different in length from day to day.  That part does drive me crazy as I have no idea what to expect from day to day.  I can't plan anything really, as for example, he wakes up at different times every day, and the nap is at a different time every day and is a different length - so it's really difficult to be anywhere for a specific time as I want to make sure he naps before I go anywhere or see anyone! The wake up time from the 1st nap could differ as much as an hour.  Do you see what I mean?

My friend wants to see me on Thursday morning next week, she asked "when will Gus have finished his morning nap" - I had to say "I have absolutely no idea, it depends on a) when he wakes up  b) what time he goes down and c) how long he sleeps for.  I know BW is all about a pattern rather that a set schedule - but I am guessing the majority of babies will have similar times that they do things each day?  My days are just so incredibly erratic IMO and I find that VERY difficult.

I am thinking that the set nap times may work for us (or may not!) but I am not really sure what set times to aim for - since one day he'll wake at 5.30, another day at 6.00 or 6.30 or even 7.00 - there is no rhyme or reason!  So, with the suggestion of choffman saying 10 and 2pm for naps - (I know it's only a suggestion) - I don't think those times would work as the majority of times he wakes earlier than 7am - so that would be a really long A time.    I don't know how the set nap times would work because of his erratic wake up times in the morning?  Does anyone have any experience of that - or, if I stick to some set times, would the wake up time regulate itself?  I guess I'd have to have a set catnap too if he still didn't sleep long.

I've got to go and have dinner now but will continue my post hopefully after dinner as there's some more I want to say !

Right, I'm back.  Today (I know I'm not supposed to be logging day to day) BUT today was very strange and I'm wondering if I did the right thing or not.

I "think" he slept through from 6.30pm last night until 5.25am this morning (DH thinks he woke at 12.00 and I fed him, but to be honest I can't remember doing that but may well have done - every night is a blur now!)  Anyway, I fed him and he would not go back to sleep - and since he'd had 11 hours sleep we agreed that there was not much point in putting him back down to sleep.  So, we got him up and I tried to put him down for his first nap at 7.59am (which would have been 2hrs 35min A time - but he just would not go to sleep, I got him up and tried again a bit later and it wasn't until 4hrs 5 min A time that he actually went to sleep and slept for an hour.  Strange.  I am not sure if it was the right thing to do to get him up at 5.30 or whether we should have tried to get him to sleep.  I am really not sure why he took so long to go down for that first nap - but it was 1-1/2 hrs earlier than he would usually nap - perhaps that had something to do with it.  He then had his next nap after only 2hrs A time (12.35-1.30) slept for 55 mins and then had a 30 min catnap in my arms from 4.00-4.30 and asleep by 6.45.  Drove me nuts - just so erratic, no pattern whatsoever etc etc... A times didn't add up at all etc etc....

Anyway, anyone's thoughts on set naps times would be appreciated and suggested timings. I am not sure whether to wake him up at the 30 min mark for the 1st nap  if he's not awake or whether that will open up another can of worms!  I know certain books suggest 9.00 and 1.00 for set naps (9.00 nap is only 30-45 mins) and 2nd nap is 1.5-2hrs (but that's wishful thinking!)

I really don't know.  I'm exasperated to be totally honest and I really don't know what to do about it.  I feel I've spent so much time on this that I really don't want to say "to hell with it"!  Doing away with my logs I don't think is going to help as if I am going to be asking for help, I'm going to be asked what I'm doing timing wise - you and other moderators and people on the site are going to ask me for a log.

Anyway, going to watch a film now to take my mind of things.