Need help with naps please please - 7.5 months

[Tobysmum]

Woke from 2nd nap at 2.00pm after a 23 min nap and would not go back to sleep.  What a mess.  Now the afternoon is totally messed up - when should I put him down again?

[lilac83]

Well, a 23 minute nap really doesn't count as anything. It's basically a useless nap. So, based on that, I would definitely do a cat nap probably around 3:45/4:00 tonight if he can even make it that long. If he's starts showing you cues before that I wouldn't wait or it could be a disaster. If he goes down earlier definitely let him sleep longer than a cat nap. If he wants an hour, let him so he can catch up a bit. He should still go down at bedtime just hopefully won't be as OT.

Don't worry, tomorrow is another day!

[Tobysmum]

I put him down at 3pm as he was showing cues but doesn't sound like he's going to go to sleep, he's crying.  GRRRRR!  Disaster.  I know tomorrow is another day, but if tonight is awful as a result of today, then it will impact tomorrow.
Oh well, can't do anything about it now.
Am going to get him up now and try again later.
Do you just think it's because his A time was so long after that second nap? 

[deckchariot]

no doubt he's OT, so you'll want to shorten his A time.  Just looking over your previous logs, it looks like 3 hr 15 is a good A time for him if he's reasonably rested.  So, if he's OT, you want less A time (how much less depends on how OT you think he is). With the 45 min nap this am, I'm guessing he was UT (since he slept in til 6:45, that was only 2.5 hrs of A time)....so combine short nap with longer A time (3hr 35 min) = OT baby (which you anticipated - because you do know your bub!).  In terms of when to put him down again, I'd say no more than 2 - 2.5 hrs of A time.  He's way OT, he needs to sleep.  I'm guessing he's pretty miserable.  I'd feed him when he's hungry, give him 30 min or so to digest, and pop him back in bed.  That was always my approach when Abby was super OT - don't worry about clock or A time - feed her when she's hungry, 30 min A time after that, then back to bed.

I think what might be helpful is for you to think through a plan for the whole day, so you're not caught in a panic throughout the day.  He will pick up on your frustration and that will not help napping.  You have a plan for the morning - nap at 9:15, so then think through - if he naps well (1 hr or more) what will you do?  If he naps poorly (less than 1 hr) what will you do?  You may want 3 options: nap 1 hr or more, nap < 30 min, nap min - 1 hr (that's kind of the gray area - probably UT, but not long enough napping to be well rested).  I think if you can develop an idea of where to go with your day, you can settle in to a routine a bit better.

If you want to bounce some ideas off me for what that plan would look like, that's fine.  You really can do this!!

[Tobysmum]

OK - so tried to put him down again at 2.55 as he was showing signs of tiredness - he would not go to sleep.  Then I waited and tried again at 4.00 - he went to sleep for 25 mins.  He's now crying.  I am going to go and get him since he's just not going to go back to sleep.  I have toddler so can't try and get him back to sleep.  I am holding my hands up and giving up today.  I guess we'll just go to bed super early - not sure how early.  Last night he was asleep by 6.30 - perhaps tonight I try and get him to sleep for between 6 and 6.15?
I read your post on having a plan - I agree I was thinking the same thing myself today.
I am really trying not to get stressed about it.  In actual fact, I felt fine today and yesterday - until he did that short lunchtime nap today and nothing much since.
Will check in later to formulate a plan as I have to go and get him.
Does my plan of super-early bed sound the best one - should I just give up on naps today - it's 4.45pm.

[lilac83]

I'm guessing it was a number of things. Like you said before, the change of scenery for him was more stimulating than usual. Also, that short nap in the car may have thrown him off. Obviously not something you could control as you had to get home somehow, but since he seems so sensitive to sleep it may have been a factor. And then the longer A time probably was the icing on the cake.

Hopefully he will take a nap for you yet today. Poor little man hasn't had a good nap all day. Otherwise early to bed and hope for the best. Let me know how it goes!

[Tobysmum]

He took a nap from 4.10 until 4.35 and that was it.  Total naps today were 45 mins ( but could have been less), 20 mins and 25 mins!  Even by his standards that is horrific!  I put him to bed early (as early as I could manage with toddler running around) - I bathed him, BF him at 6.05 and then in bed for 6.25.  He only took one side of breastfeed (usually he takes both at bedtime) - I think he would have taken too had my toddler not walked into the room and distracted him.  Anyway, got him down - he was not happy - clearly very tired - and then went into my bedroom to find my toddler had peed on the floor, emptied my handbag and done a poo in his pants!
What a day!  Well, I should say, what an afternoon as the morning was OK.
Hopefully the night will be better, but unlikely I fear!
Another day tomorrow................

[Tobysmum]

Well, he was fed at 6.05pm and took one side (usually takes both but toddler distracted him).  He was in bed at 6.25pm - later than I would have liked but wasn't easily with toddler.  He was not happy and cried, asleep by 6.40pm. 
If I do early bedtime due to bad naps etc - what time would you recommend trying to get him asleep by if he's usually asleep by 6.45/7.00 on a "regular" day? 

I agree with your plan about having set A times according to the naps.

My Plan (please give me your feedback)

1. Initially for the first nap I will continue with putting him down at 9.15am for a couple more days (I've already done 2 days). 
2. If this doesn't lengthen that first nap, then I will go with 3 hrs A time from when he wakes (problem with this as I've said before is that often I do not know when he actually wakes either because I am asleep and don't hear him even with the monitor on, or because he just lies there quietly before he starts to make noise).
3.  For 2nd nap - if he sleeps 30 mins or less - put down at 2hrs 55 mins, ideally asleep by 3hrs?
4.  For 2nd nap -  if he sleeps 30 mins - 1hr put down at 3hrs 5 mins, ideally asleep by 3hrs 10 mins?
5.  For 2nd nap - if he sleeps 1hr + - put down at 3hrs 10 mins, asleep by 3hrs 15 mins?

6.  Do early bedtime instead of catnap? (unless he happens to fall asleep in a car or something of his own accord?)

So, there we go.  As you'll see, I've only allowed 5 mins to go to sleep - I am not sure how realistic that is, or whether I should put him down a bit earlier - it's a fine line.  Sometimes he falls asleep immediately and other times not.  How does that all sound - feel free to change things, you are the expert!

[Tobysmum]

I wonder if you could look at this for me.  I am also talking on the Naps board (as it's a Nap issue related to my EASY).  On there, it has been suggested that I come up with a proper plan - which I think is a good idea. 

My plan is as follows - if you could take a look and let me know your comments on my A times, that would be great.  Then I can give it a go for a week or so and see if things improve.  It seems (according to the BF and night wakings boards) that our bad naps has led to chronic OT and that's what is causing the night wakings etc and feeding in night.  Really, as I've read countless times, I have to get the days sorted before I will see any improvement in the nights.  So will have to work really hard on these naps and hopefully will be able to get him better rested.  If he wasn't an angel/textbook baby in temperament, I would certainly have a demon child on my hands for sure!  Despite him being OT (I know he is), he is still very amiable (although slightly zombie like by this evening!)  Whilst some may say, "if he's happy maybe he just doesn't need the sleep", I really do think he is OT due to evening wakings, early morning wake ups, short naps etc.  I accept that he's never going to be a long long sleeper, but I definitely feel he's not getting enough.

Anyway, here is my plan - please give me your comments?

One question, I see you aren't a moderator - why not?!  Just wondering if there are there any moderators looking at my thread at all?  I think Grace's Mom helped me out last time (before I drove her away because of my stressing out!!!)

My Plan (please give me your feedback)

1. Initially for the first nap I will continue with putting him down at 9.15am for a couple more days (I've already done 2 days).  The moderator on the Naps forum said set naps never worked for us but still suggested I give it a go before discounting it.
2. If this doesn't lengthen that first nap, then I will go with 3 hrs A time from when he wakes (problem with this as I've said before is that often I do not know when he actually wakes either because I am asleep and don't hear him even with the monitor on, or because he just lies there quietly before he starts to make noise).
3.  For 2nd nap - if he sleeps 30 mins or less - put down at 2hrs 55 mins, ideally asleep by 3hrs?
4.  For 2nd nap -  if he sleeps 30 mins - 1hr put down at 3hrs 5 mins, ideally asleep by 3hrs 10 mins?
5.  For 2nd nap - if he sleeps 1hr + - put down at 3hrs 10 mins, asleep by 3hrs 15 mins?

6.  Do early bedtime instead of catnap? (unless he happens to fall asleep in a car or something of his own accord?)

So, there we go.  As you'll see, I've only allowed 5 mins to go to sleep - I am not sure how realistic that is, or whether I should put him down a bit earlier - it's a fine line.  Sometimes he falls asleep immediately and other times not.  How does that all sound - feel free to change things, you seem to be the expert!

[lilac83]

My suggestions (for what they're worth!) 

1. I was planning on talking to you about the set 9:15 nap. Wondering if you thought that was a good time, something we should change, etc. Set naps are usually better for slightly older children, however, this then brings me to number 2...

2. Your not knowing when he wakes is exactly why I suggested the set nap time. Also, my guess is he doesn't wake at the same time every morning so even if you were able to know some mornings when he wakes, other mornings would still be guesses, so my hope was his body would get used to going down for nap at a certain time each morning. So, let me know what you think about this time based on using it for the past 3 days.

3. If you look at yesterday, after a 30m nap you put him down at 3h 15m and got a 1h 10m nap. So I don't know if you really want to decrease his A time here. You may end up with a shorter nap which in the end will just continue the OT cycle.

4. If he sleeps 30m - 1h I would stick with the 3h 15m A time still as, although this is a better nap, it's still not super so he would probably still need a little less A time.

5. If he starts sleeping over an hour for the first nap, he'll probably need more A time since he's well rested. Perhaps just an extra 10-15 minutes.

Basically, it's going to take some trial and error. However, whatever you pick to start with try to stick with for at least 3 days. Just out of curiosity, what does the Nap board say?

[Tobysmum]

Hi,

Thanks for your imput (see notes below).
Last night was not good (unsurprisingly!). 
- He woke at 9.23pm crying - DH tried to resettle but he was screaming and would not settle and got really worked up, so I ended up feeding him at 9.50pm as I thought he was probably hungry from only taking one side at bedtime.  I gave him one side.
 - Woke again at 1.20am - had been a while since he'd had that second side (bearing in mind he'd only had the other half of the feed at 9.50pm) - so I fed him again (both sides to try and get us til morning)
- I think he woke again but settled back to sleep with no intervention.
- Woke at 5.35am (fed him 1 side as it had been over 4hrs).
- Woke at 6.45am (took 1 side - rarely takes two at this time)
- Fed at 10.50am (took 1 side - never takes two at this time)

In my opinion, he was genuinely hungry at all the times I fed him.

In reference to your message about my "plan".
I was kind of thinking that when I wrote it - he's pretty well rested after a 45-1hr nap despite it being short. 

1 & 2. As far as the set nap goes, he went down at 9.15am again today and took a 50 min nap (yesterday a 45 min nap).  Both days he's woken at approx 6.45am - so yesterday's A time was 2hrs 35 min A time (asleep) and today was 2hrs 40 mins (asleep).  I am thinking now that the set nap time of 9.15 is probably a bit early now if he's wakes closer to 6.45.  He was waking between 6.15 and 6.30 before.  So I am in two minds of whether to do a set nap time of say 9.30am - which would hopefully bring us closer to a 3hr A time - or to do it so he's asleep 3hrs after waking.  The key thing is really to know when he wakes.  I think I'll try for a 9.30am set time for 3-4 days unless I know he's woken particularly early.  Do you agree?

3 & 4.   If he does 30 min-1hr I'll stick with getting him asleep for 3hrs 15 mins and see what happens.

5. If he sleeps over an hour for the first nap then I'll perhaps try for him to be asleep by 3hrs 30 mins and see what happens.

I realise it's going to take lots of trial and error - God knows I've been doing it for months with no success.  DH is saying that BW is not working for us and that it's not been working for months (which in many ways is true) - but I asked him if he had any other bright ideas!?  - he didn't!

Haven't heard from the Nap board yet - will hopefully do so soon.  I will hear what they have to say before making a definitive plan - but I think what you have said is probably what they will say too!
 

[Tobysmum]

HI
Last night was not good (unsurprisingly!). 
- He woke at 9.23pm crying - DH tried to resettle but he was screaming and would not settle and got really worked up, so I ended up feeding him at 9.50pm as I thought he was probably hungry from only taking one side at bedtime.  I gave him one side.
 - Woke again at 1.20am - had been a while since he'd had that second side (bearing in mind he'd only had the other half of the feed at 9.50pm) - so I fed him again (both sides to try and get us til morning)
- I think he woke again but settled back to sleep with no intervention.
- Woke at 5.35am (fed him 1 side as it had been over 4hrs).


I posted my plan here yesterday as you suggested - I also ran it on the EASY board to get their imput.   

Their imput on my plan was as follows (LILAC 83 is helping me there)

1. I was planning on talking to you about the set 9:15 nap. Wondering if you thought that was a good time, something we should change, etc. Set naps are usually better for slightly older children, however, this then brings me to number 2...

2. Your not knowing when he wakes is exactly why I suggested the set nap time. Also, my guess is he doesn't wake at the same time every morning so even if you were able to know some mornings when he wakes, other mornings would still be guesses, so my hope was his body would get used to going down for nap at a certain time each morning. So, let me know what you think about this time based on using it for the past 3 days.

3. If you look at yesterday, after a 30m nap you put him down at 3h 15m and got a 1h 10m nap. So I don't know if you really want to decrease his A time here. You may end up with a shorter nap which in the end will just continue the OT cycle.

4. If he sleeps 30m - 1h I would stick with the 3h 15m A time still as, although this is a better nap, it's still not super so he would probably still need a little less A time.

5. If he starts sleeping over an hour for the first nap, he'll probably need more A time since he's well rested. Perhaps just an extra 10-15 minutes.

Basically, it's going to take some trial and error. However, whatever you pick to start with try to stick with for at least 3 days. Just out of curiosity, what does the Nap board say?

THIS WAS MY RESPONSE TO THAT ADVICE:

I was kind of thinking that when I wrote it - he's pretty well rested after a 45-1hr nap despite it being short. 

1 & 2. As far as the set nap goes, he went down at 9.15am again today and took a 50 min nap (yesterday a 45 min nap).  Both days he's woken at approx 6.45am - so yesterday's A time was 2hrs 35 min A time (asleep) and today was 2hrs 40 mins (asleep).  I am thinking now that the set nap time of 9.15 is probably a bit early now if he's wakes closer to 6.45.  He was waking between 6.15 and 6.30 before.  So I am in two minds of whether to do a set nap time of say 9.30am - which would hopefully bring us closer to a 3hr A time - or to do it so he's asleep 3hrs after waking.  The key thing is really to know when he wakes.  I think I'll try for a 9.30am set time for 3-4 days unless I know he's woken particularly early.  Do you agree?

3 & 4.   If he does 30 min-1hr I'll stick with getting him asleep for 3hrs 15 mins and see what happens.

5. If he sleeps over an hour for the first nap then I'll perhaps try for him to be asleep by 3hrs 30 mins and see what happens.

I realise it's going to take lots of trial and error - God knows I've been doing it for months with no success.  DH is saying that BW is not working for us and that it's not been working for months (which in many ways is true) - but I asked him if he had any other bright ideas!?  - he didn't!

Haven't heard from the Nap board yet - will hopefully do so soon.  I will hear what they have to say before making a definitive plan - but I think what you have said is probably what they will say too!

DO YOU THINK THIS IS A GOOD PLAN TO GO WITH?  Sorry to be so high maintenance by the way!

 

[lilac83]

Rough night. Do you think he's going through a growth spurt? You could try to squeeze in an extra BF sometime today to see if that helps.

I think your plan with the set nap of 9:30 sounds good. Have you gone through the time change yet? Also, if he ever does have another early morning like he did the other day making it 9:00/9:15 is always an option. It's a set nap time, but not set in stone, so if you feel some morning he's just not going to make it, it's probably better to put him down earlier. I would try my best to keep it around the same time though since you're not usually sure when he woke.

Otherwise, it sounds like you've got a real good plan in mind. Hopefully he will start sleeping better during the day and his nights improve as well. Let me know how it goes!

[Tobysmum]

Thanks for that.  Having a GS had occurred to me (although I have never knowingly witnessed him having one, nor with DS#1 either!)  NW board I think suggested that, but that's when they thought he was 6 months.  He's 7.5 months old, so would be unusual to have one then, but he does everything late!  He was born at 4 pounds 14 ounces (full term), didn't really like solids until about 7 months, isn't sitting up, no teeth etc - so perhaps he's just having a late GS!!!
He is a bit sniffly (DS#1 has a cold), so perhaps that's a factor too? 
I guess we'll see in a week's time whether things improve or not.
I will let you know what the Nap board say about my plan - but it certainly sounds good to me.  Will try it for a few days and see what happens.
So today after that 50 min nap I will try for asleep for 3hrs 15 mins and see what happens.  Hopefully he'll be super tired after last night!?

Darn it  - no, our clocks haven't changed yet - it's this weekend!  Had totally forgotten about that.  DS#1 was always the best ever at clock changes - didn't affect him one bit - I suspect that's not going to be the case with Gus.  That said, it's not like we have much to mess up at the moment


Heard from the nap board - this is what Michelle said:

Sorry I didn't get back with you earlier, I try to limit my BW time to just during Abby's naps, and yesterday was a short nap, and she's just now gone down today.  I totally agree with the feedback you got from EASY - when I first read your plan, my initial response was that the A times were too short.  Your response to their feedback looks more like where I think you probably need to be - a bit longer A times all around.

In terms of set nap times vs. A times.....if he's waking generally around 6:45 (give or take 10 - 15 min either way), then using a 3 hr A time puts you at a naptime around 9:45 (give or take 10-15 min either way).  So what you could do is aim to have him in bed between 9:15 and 9:45 - if he's up early on a given day, do 9:15, if he sleeps in a bit (oh the joy!) do 9:45.  If you're not sure, split the difference and do 9:30.

Your other other times look good based on how his naps go.  The key thing is to be really consistent for at least 3 days (sometimes it can take 5 days to see real improvement).  So once you've got your plan, stick to it and see how it goes.  BW does really work, it just can take a bit of time to sort things through, so hang in there.

Just to let you know, I'm heading out of town in about an hour and won't be back til late Sat. night, so probably won't be on here til Sunday.  You'll be just fine - really!

[deckchariot]

Sorry I didn't get back with you earlier, I try to limit my BW time to just during Abby's naps, and yesterday was a short nap, and she's just now gone down today.  I totally agree with the feedback you got from EASY - when I first read your plan, my initial response was that the A times were too short.  Your response to their feedback looks more like where I think you probably need to be - a bit longer A times all around. 

In terms of set nap times vs. A times.....if he's waking generally around 6:45 (give or take 10 - 15 min either way), then using a 3 hr A time puts you at a naptime around 9:45 (give or take 10-15 min either way).  So what you could do is aim to have him in bed between 9:15 and 9:45 - if he's up early on a given day, do 9:15, if he sleeps in a bit (oh the joy!) do 9:45.  If you're not sure, split the difference and do 9:30.

Your other other times look good based on how his naps go.  The key thing is to be really consistent for at least 3 days (sometimes it can take 5 days to see real improvement).  So once you've got your plan, stick to it and see how it goes.  BW does really work, it just can take a bit of time to sort things through, so hang in there.

Just to let you know, I'm heading out of town in about an hour and won't be back til late Sat. night, so probably won't be on here til Sunday.  You'll be just fine - really!