Help with naps!

[~Alexa~]

I know how hard it can be!! Especially if you have another DS!! Have you tried wearing a baby sling during these tough days?? In this  way, you can have time for yourself and your DS.  I know this is a bit of AP, but I think that there are days that are very difficult and you need to take a break.  Try the baby sling, it has worked for me during those stressful days!!

Tomorrow, you can try to reduce the A time, but today, relax and don't worry about it, do AP and whatever is necessary for getting your baby to sleep. 

[becky1969]

Trowdent -- I agree 100% with Patmami on this.  Your day is blown b/c she's just so worn out that she can't sleep.  So get a sling and carry her around and before you know it she'll be snoozing soundly! Don't fret about the routine being messed up; tomorrow is a new day! and Patmami's original assessment is absolutely correct: you started your wind down too late.  A time is from the moment they wake up until the second they fall asleep. So, if you're going to rock for 20 minutes but know your child only can do about 1h10 A time, then you start your wind dow around 45 minutes after she wakes up.  Make sense? Don't worry! It will get better! And I have a 3 year old dude, so I know how active they can be! But I also know they love to help, so when you need to get LO down, tell big one "Can you help mommy? I need you to put this laundry in the basket while I put sister down."  That keeps him occupied and you have time to put LO to bed.  If you hit the A time right then you also won't need to rock so long. You'll relax her for a bit, and then put her down awake to fall asleep on her own.  If you put her down soon enought hat will totally work and free you up too!

Patmami -- today I wouldn't bother waking unless it goes much past 2.5 hours.  WTG on getting back to sleep!! YAY!! 

[~Alexa~]

Becky,

If I know that he is OT when I put him to sleep, is there a strategy that I can use for extending his next nap?
I read that I could get into his room before 45 min, but does this work for OT? And if it DOES, how is it done?

[becky1969]

Well, what you can do is go in the room about 5 minutes before he typically wakes.  You'll know you're in there at the right time if he's still sleeping quietly.  Then, when he starts to move about, as if he's waking up, apply gentle pressure to arms and legs.  He may still wake up, but continue the pressure unless he starts crying hard.  I'm not sure if this will work for an OT bub or not.  It might.  Try that for 3 naps and see if you get a longer nap out of him.  The other thing you'll do is try to shush/pat (or whatever soothing your bub likes) to see if he'll go back to sleep.  It may take 20 minutes! But, if you can get another sleep cycle out of him (30-45 minutes) then it was worth it.  Nap extention can often help nip an OT cycle in the bud because then he at least gets the right amt of sleep in him, even though it's interrupted sleep.

Give each of those methods a try, but you'll need to do it for 3 naps in a row before giving up or trying something else.

[~Alexa~]

Hey, Becky!!! Today, I just wanted to observe what happened with him before the 45 min mark, so I went into his room and watched what happened.  First, he started complaining and making noises, but was still asleep (at least he had his eyes closed), then, he started moving and opened his eyes.  He didn't fuss nor cry, so I let him, he started falling asleep again because he closed his eyes, so I left the room because I thought that he would fall asleep by himself, but 5 min later, he started crying.  Why did this happen? WHy did he wake up, if he was trying so hard to fall asleep, (I saw him, he was closing his eyes)??   

I will try what you said to see if it works, but I just don't understand why he wakes up if he tries to fall asleep.

[~Alexa~]

One question.....If I apply pressure to his arms and legs, and it doesn't work (he wakes up and starts crying), what should I do? Should I pick him up or should I try the shpat?

[becky1969]

If he wakes up, then I'd use whatever I could to get him back to sleep.

The reason you see him moving around like that then waking up a few minutes later is that he's trying to make the sleep transition, but is failing.  When they're OT, they just have a hard time staying asleep.  So, by applying gentle pressure you're preventing him from thrashing himself awake.

[~Alexa~]

Things were going better because my lo had had longer naps, I thought I had found his A time.  He was awake for 1 hour and then he slept long naps twice, but then, he had 1 hour A time and didn't sleep more than 45 min.  Why does this happen? Was he OT? But why did this A time work for other naps??

[trowdenmt]

ok i have shortened my A time but my DD still wont go to sleep and stay asleep without me holding her until she is in a deep sleep, how do I fix this AP. I can't even set her in her swing now unless she is completely out.

[~Alexa~]

Hello, Trowdent! Tracy talked about the shushpat method for babies under 3 months.  Take a look at these links for learning about the pat/shush:
 
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=451.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0

Becky,
Again, my lo gets hysterical and impossible around 6 p.m. Why is this? He just starts crying and crying and won't go to sleep.  Is there anything that I can do to help him? I have tried swaddling him, but he gets worse, he hates it.  He refuses to take his catnap so he ends up OT before bedtime.  Any suggestions? Should I post my routine again? Does this have anything to do with having some 45 minnaps and some loooong naps?
Do you think moving his bath earlier (around 6) will make this difficult hour better?

[becky1969]

Def. post your routine, and we'll see if that's it.

Here's the thing -- there's something called "the witching hour" that most babies experience sometime between 4-6/7 pm.  They are just really wound up and cry and carry on for what appears to be no reason!  Based on what I know about my son now, I think it is just them trying to deal with alllll the stimulation from the day.  It must be so overwhelming for them.  Even though we do such a good job on BW with keeping them in a routine, there are still so many new experiences for them every day -- new sights, new smells, new touches, new sounds, etc.  Cataloging all of that stuff and making sense of it must just really blow their little gaskets by 4 pm, LOL!

Let's look at your routine, but beyond that I'd say to keep all stimulation to a minimum after 4 pm.  My rule was no light/sound toys after that point.  I also kept things VERY low key -- I didn't get in his face with lots of talking/playing.  I would snuggle him in the carrier to sort of minimize sights/sounds and to make him feel close to me.  We also did our bath then for awhile, but I found the bath stimulated my LO too much.  That may be diff. for your LO, so absolutely follow your knowledge of your baby on that.  Even now, my LO finds the bath stimulating so it is part of his touchy nature. 

[~Alexa~]

Thanks!! So my routine is this:

7:30 a.m. - Wake up
E. 8:00 a.m.
A. 8:30 a.m.
S. 8:40 a.m. - 11:45 a.m.

E. 11:45 a.m.
A. 12:15 p.m.
S. 1:00 p.m. - 3:00 p.m.

E. 3:00 p.m.
A. 3:30 p.m.
S. 4:00 p.m. - 4:45 p.m (It was impossible to get him back to sleep.  I tried everything, even AP)

E. 5:30 p.m.
No Activity.  We did our Winddown routine, but he didn't fall asleep.  He was very fussy and crying.
S. No sleep.  Again, I tried everything. 

Bath - 8:30 p.m.
E. 9:00 p.m.
Bedtime 9:30 p.m.

E. 12:00 a.m.
S. 12:30 a.m.
E. 3:30 a.m.
S. 4:00 a.m.

He had more NW, and I think that it was because he didn't nap so much in the evening.  Now that I see my routine, I think that I should have moved the bath before, that usually relaxes my baby and makes it easier for him to fall asleep.  I will appreciate all your suggestions.

I have been having another problem.  One week ago, I switched to bottle feeding, my lo took it pretty well, but he takes forever to eat.  He drinks one oz, and then he doesn't want to continue, so I have to change his diaper, and offer the bottle again, and then he drinks 3 more oz.  The problem is that by the time he is drinking the last oz, it is time for him to go to bed, so he has been falling asleep with the bottle.  I don't wake him up because i think that might make him OT.  Do you have any suggestions?? I don't want the bottle to become a prop!!! So right now, my routine is not EASY, it's more like EAESY!!

[becky1969]

Ok, let's look at routine and then we'll talk about the feeds.

So, was that 1st nap really 3 hours?  Wowza! When you fix a napping problem, you really do!    The thing is, though, we try to limit daytime naps to 2 hours so that there is a clear distinction between day and night sleep.  I think that will also give you a better rhythm to your day.  2nd nap looks awesome -- great timing!  Now 3rd nap, I think you put your baby down a little too soon -- you've got 1 hour A time.  Was that because he fell asleep eating, like you described? It's possible that the 45 minutes was just all he needed.  In fact, since you already had FIVE hours of sleep that day, he may have be pretty rested up! LOL!  He obviously got OT at the end of the day because he wasn't ready for sleep when you tried, and so that pushed him waaaaay too late with a 9:30 bedtime.

Here's how I think the day should go:

7:30 wake
8:40/45-10:45 nap

10:45 eat
12-2 nap

2:00 eat
3:15-4:15/4:45 or so sleep (I wouldn't expect much more than 1-1.5 hours of sleep at this nap)

4:45 eat

6:00 sleep for the night, believe it or not!

Then if you want, a 10 pm dream feed.

I looked back at my logs for this age, and girl naps are allll over the place! They never happened at the same tiem, they varied in length from 1-2 hours, and so the routine was highly variable.  It's just how they are! As long as you are doing EASY, that's all that matters.  There were lots of nights where he went to bed at 6 pm because that was the end of our day!  Once they've had about 3 naps, it's best just to put them down for the nigth and let them sleep.  It will be about another 4-6 weeks before you get into a more regular routine and bedtime becomes closer to 7/7:30 where it will pretty much stay, regardless of # of naps, until he's 2 or 3!

Now, for the eat.  Hmmm.  Does he actually want to eat when he wakes?  It could be that if you waited a good 15-20 minutes and then fed then he might take the full feed at that point.  I know most babies this age are screaming the house down for food, but it sounds like he's not doing that!  you might also check out the Bottle Feeding board, and see if they have any ideas.  Perhaps its a sign of something that I'm not aware of.  My son had reflux, so we had all sorts of weird bottle behaviors, but that doesn't sound like what's going on with you. 

[~Alexa~]

Your advice is great!! Thanks! I will try it!! So, if I want him to go to sleep after 1 hr 15 min A time, at what time should I put him down? After 1 hour A time or before??
The first nap wasn't 3 hours long, he slept 45 min and then I put him back to sleep with shushpat and he slept for 1.5 hr.
I thought he needed to have a catnap during the evening, so that's why I didn't put him to bed early!! I will put him to sleep after 3 long naps!! Now I understand that I was trying sooo hard to put him to sleep when he wasn't really tired! 
If he sleeps 5 hrs during the day, is he ready for bedtime?? 
So, whenever he is not ready to sleep and I put him down and he fusses and cries, what should I do? Should I take him out of the room for a while and then try again?

The problem with bottle feeding my lo is that (as you suggested) he is not really hungry when he wakes up! I thought about waiting 20 min to feed him, but then, the A time is over and he falls asleep with the bottle!! arrrrrrr! That's what happened yesterday with that short nap, he fell asleep while eating and he had only 45 min A time. 
My son has reflux, but he is taking meds and it is controlled.  I don't think that's bothering him.  Or may be it is and I haven't noticed. 
So I will post a thread in the bottle feeding thread to see if they have any ideas. 

[becky1969]

Hmmm. Reflux might be at issue with the feeds.  I think he may be eating 1 oz, and then refluxing a bit, and then he's ready for the rest of it.  What meds are you on? You may need to try a diff. medicine or get a better dose.  If you have a silent refluxer, it's hard to know when they're 'fluxing!  That was our problem with our son.

Yup, after 5 hours of daytime sleep, he should be set to go for the night.  We want them to get 15-18 hours of sleep.  We want to see 4.5-5.5 during the day, and then the rest as night sleep (so 10-12 hours at night).  I think if you put to bed for the night at 6 you'll be much happier with the results.  Hopefully with the 2 feeds in there you will still get around a 7/7:30 waking for the day.

The thing with reflux is that we also want to avoid feeding right before sleep as they need that time to digest.  Def. talk to the bottle feeding people, and think about asking ped about diff/more meds.  Prevacid is the gold standard -- if you're on Zantac, it may not be working well enough.