HELP with 11 week (7 week adjusted) EASY

[charmie]

At 2 months a time is approx 1.5hrs.  But I agree that you shouldn't get caught up in the average a times.  Every baby is different.  I think observing her and following her is a very good idea.  I'm not very familiar with touchy babies, but I think when they yawn they are already quite tired.  So maybe if you see that she tends to yawn after 1hr, you aim to start wind-down at 50 mins so by 1hr she is ready in crib.


xxx
charm

[ernurse05]

I'm still a bit confused.  I followed Hannah's cues today and had her down for her naps very well.  She was either sleeping right through her nap or I'd go in at 30 min when she'd start to stir and pat her for a few and get her back into the cycle.  That was going just fine.  She ate at 7, 11, 2, 4:30, 7:30, and Dream feed at 10:30 but when I picked her up for that she woke up!!  I think she was in a light light sleep at that point and when I picked her up I woke her.  She still took 2 ounces.  But then awoke at 12:15!!  She was really rooting around and spit out her pacifier so I gave her the bottle and she took about 1 ounce and was barely sucking so I put her back into bed...she cried out a few times but put herself back to sleep (retrospect, shouldn't have fed her but instead waited longer to see if she would have gone back on her own).  Then she woke at 3, I waited for about 5-10 min and she wasn't putting herself to sleep.  THis is when she normally would be getting up to eat so I fed her.  Took 2, almost 2.5 ounces.  I had to change her first, too, because she has been saturating her diaper until they leak!  Put her right down once she was drowsy and her eyes popped open.  I patted her for a minute and she was yawning so I knew she was tired.  I walked out and she put herself to sleep. 

My question is: how can I be getting OT naps during the day and NW after midnight if they usually mean UT?  It seems like when I try to extend her A time even by a few minutes her naps get worse and she's more tired and the NW after midnight get worse!  I'm trying to just follow her cues and when she's tired, put her down...but the NW are KILLING me.  Last night it was 1, 3:30, and 6. Night before that it was 2:45, 4:30, 5:30, and 6. So far tonight it is 12:15, and 3....I'm not really seeing a pattern at night and I can't do W2S if I don't know exactly when she's going to wake.  Any suggestions?

[charmie]

Well W2S works if she is always waking up at the the same time, which is not your case.

I think you need to give her time to self settle instead of trying to feed her.  She might have accidentally learnt that when she wakes up at night she needs the bottle to go back to sleep.  You are doing very well with the naps, which will help you settle the nights too.  Just give her the opportunity to learn to self settle.  She is still very small so night feeds are normal, however she should be able to feed at longer intervals than during the day.

As for the leakages, are you using a night nappy?  Maybe 1 size bigger than what you use during the day?


xxx
charm

[ernurse05]

as far as the diaper, I just use Pampers Sensitive in size 1 at night...she has VERY sensitive skin, just like her daddy!  I use a lot of diaper cream to prevent diaper rash as well.  She's so prone to diaper rashes that if I smell her and think she needs a change, I better. 

The naps were working out pretty well today so far.  She didn't want to eat much at all this morning, even though the last time she ate was at 3:30.  It's like she gets distracted or just gets enough to satisfy the hunger and wants nothing more.  I've even started facing the wall when I feed her so she doesn't have anything interesting to look at.  But still, about halfway through her feedings she cranks her head to the left and keeps eating for a few and then spits out the bottle.  I usually burp her after that and then offer it to her again, figure if she wants it she'll take it.  She made it about 50-60 min this morning and slept through her nap without waking up.  I think she might have cried out a few times but I don't remember having to go in and pat.  I did, however have to go in and wake her up since it had been 3 hrs.  She started to get cranky after about 45 min after her 2nd feeding and went right to sleep....but woke up about 40 min later...gave her plenty of time to settle and she couldn't...so I did pat her back to sleep...ended up having to wake her back up again.  Is that the right thing to do?

I'm thinking we may have to go get a video monitor that way I can see when she's waking up if she looks like she is going to put herself back to sleep or if she's wide awake.  That might help me in the night, too.

[charmie]

yes keep waking her up for the feeds.  Otherwise she will not take enough calories during the day, and will make up for it at night.  Also if she sleeps for long stretches during the day, she will not be tired to go through the night.


xxx
charm

[ernurse05]

so last night kinda sucked a little!  I fed her at 4:15ish and she was down at about 5:20...only slept 30 min...I could NOT extend her nap!! And she was FUSSY.  I ended up getting her up at 6:40 and trying to feed, then I sponge bathed her and fed her again, sent her to bed....she was down about 7:15.  She made some noises at 9, thought maybe she was going to wake again to eat but she didn't wake up.  I went in about 10:30 to do the dream feed and she woke up again...but fell asleep eating, took about 2.5 ounces.  She woke up at 1:15a and wasn't really crying to I figured I'd give her a few to see if she could settle herself.  She was quiet within 5-10 min...but 10 min later was back at it.  Thought I'd let her do it again but she never settled.  Ended up going in to pat her at 1:40 and did so until 2:10.  She woke up at 2:30 fussing.  I gave her another while to settle and her cries escalated.  It was getting close to 3 and that is usually when she wakes to eat so I got up and fed her.  She took 3.5 ounces and slept until 6:45.  Now, this morning she really didn't want to eat when she woke up. I tried to feed her and she only took one ounce so I set her on the floor to play for a minute then got her dressed then finished feeding her and she took about 3 ounces. I think maybe if I get her up and get her dressed that may give her time to wake up and be hungry.  She started fussing after about 45 min of being awake. (actually was full out crying on the floor while I was changing her sheets on her crib).  I put her in the front carrier so I could finish making her bed.  She made it about 65 min before she was in her bed.  I really want to try to extend her A time because she has all the indications of moving toward a 3.5hr EASY except the A time.  I just don't know how else to do it to keep her from getting more OT.  With her waking up at night (and being able to be pretty much awake from 5:45-7:15 at night and then for a while in the middle of the night and then taking a good feed) makes it seem like she's undertired during the day but yet after being awake during the day she gets fussy and then doesn't sleep but 30 min.  It's a vicious cycle!!! 

Have you read the post about How Tracy got Josie and her family past the 45 min naps?  I talked to her a little about it and wanted to try it but it just seems like she gets overtired and the extra feeds during the day didn't make a difference with the nightwakings.  What do you think about all of this???  I really feel like I'm lost.  It just seems like overnight she went from 4 hr feedings and great naps to crappy feedings and crappy naps!

[charmie]

Best thing to do is to post your whole routine daily in this form;

E
A
S

E
A
S
etc.

Otherwise I get a bit lost 

You are doing  a great job in giving her the opportunity to self settle.  It really seems like she is OT though.  Try to do the catnap more towards 5pm.


xxx
charm

[ernurse05]

So this morning started out like this:
I think she woke up at 6:30ish
E: 6:45 (had to get dressed in middle of feeding, lost interest in feeding)
A:
S: 7:55 (a little past her norm, I was changing sheets on her crib)
Started to stir at 8:22, went in, kinda woke her up a little, she went back to sleep)

Woke about 9:30
E: 9:40
A:
S: 10:20
made a couple noises at 10:45, 11:05, but kept sleeping

E:12:00
A
S:12:45

woke her at 3
E: 3:05
A:
S: 4:00

woke at 4:30...patted for 1 hr and 15 min. totally inconsolable from 5-5:30. Had to pick her up and hold her.  she was calm but crying out by 5:45

E: tried to feed at 6:05, only took 40ml and that was pretty forced.
A: bath 6:20-6:40
E: 6:45 almost 3 oz
S: 7:00
 we'll see what the rest of the night holds for us. 

what do you think so far?  Still tackling OT?  Since she has been having short naps I have NEVER been able to get that afternoon cat nap right.  If I let it be 30-45 min she is CRANKY!  If I extend it it doesn't seem to matter.  ARGH! Seems like as the day goes on her A time needs to be shortened.  What do you think???  I just don't know anymore.  How am I supposed to work on extending A time if she's constantly OT?! 

Do you think maybe she could to EASAS?  And then do a 4 hr?  She just doesn't seem to be hungry at 3 hrs.  If you look at today, she ate at 3 and then had a really good feed almost 4 hrs later....and that is how it was last night...maybe it had something to do with the crying, though??   I just feel like nothing works! And I don't like feeling like I'm force feeding her. But I don't know how else to get calories during the day and not so much at night. Any thoughts?  I really appreciate all the help!

[charmie]

Well the 1st 3 naps were awesome!!!  So well done    The whole routine was good.  Seemed like you did a kind of W2S during that 1st nap.

The 3rd a time was only 45 mins so you might be right and she might do better with shorter a times towards the end of the day.  Maybe try that?

She doesn't seem to be in the OT cycle anymore.  Not with such good naps.  She might have been OT for the catnap, but that's only 1 nap.  We need to crack this catnap though as it will affect her bedtime, and night rest.  I would keep to these a times at the moment since she's doing so well with them.  She will extend a times slowly.  You just keep following her cues  .

As for the feeds; do you think she is not feeding enough, or could it be that this is her needed intake?  Is she breast or bottle fed? (sorry if yo've said already).


xxx
charm

[ernurse05]

I've been sticking with this routine for a few days and so far it has gone really well.  Her typical A time is about 1 hr.  As far as the afternoon cat nap, the next day (yesterday) she slept for 1 hr and I woke her up, fed her, did some quiet A time, bath (sponge) and then went down...and then she fed again 2 hrs later and was down for the night, slept until 3am!  Hopefully it goes the same today.  All of her naps today I've had to wake her up from...just like yesterday!

I'm not sure about her feeding (bottle fed EBM).  I had her into the pediatrician a few weeks ago because I was concerned that she went from taking almost 4 ounces to now it's a struggle to get 2!  That all started when she started waking from her naps early.  Someone mentioned maybe silent reflux and she does have a lot of those symptoms (hiccups, arching her back while eating/turning her head away, spitting out the bottle/pushing it away, congestion, wet burps, sour breath (I think), just to name some)  so when we go back on the 22nd for her 4 month appt I will mention it to her.  In the meantime, if he continues to struggle I will call and ask about Mylanta and see if that helps.  I'm a pretty small person and so is my husband and she's only in the 3rd percentile so I guess I don't expect her to eat a ton....we battled with FTT in the beginning and seem to be doing better.  So , we'll see.

As far as the OT, doesn't seem to be the case anymore.  Just don't think she's ready for long A times.  She's doing just great with the 1hr and when she's ready to extend we'll work on it...but for now, I'm learning to read her cues and that seems to be working :-)  I feel like I have my little girl back again 

[charmie]

YAY!!!  I am so happy for you!!!

I would keep an eye on that reflux thing though.

xxx
charm

[ernurse05]

Charmie, can you tell me what you think about this.  DD is now 14 weeks old and I'm thinking maybe she's ready to be transitioning to 3.5 hr EASY.  Started dealing with 45 min naps again after we got out of OT cycle so thinking she needs longer A time.  I'll post today so far and show you why I'm thinking that.

cried out about 3:50, 5 something, and 6:00. 

got her up at 6:15
E: 6:15-6:35 2 or 3 oz
A: diaper change, dressed 6:35-6:40
took her back into room, rocked and swaddled she was super fussy and cried hard..shh/pat while in arms. Put her into crib and continued shh/pat at 6:55
S: 7:00/7:05
cried out and turning head about 7:35, 7:42 crying(annoyed cry)/coughing quiet at 7:46, started again 7:49 for a second, 7:52 for a second,

woke up 9:15
E: 9:20-9:30, 2 ounces
A: diaper change 9:40-9:45, bouncy chair 9:45-9:55, floor/tummy time 9:55-10, started fussing, yawn 10, warmed beanbag and walked...yawned more, swaddled, 4s's WD in room...shh/pat while holding, in crib at 10:10 continued shh/pat
S: 10:15
held her through jolts from 10:50-11:10, again at 11:40 (shh/pat for a few because she woke up)

woke her at 12:15
E:12:25-12:35, 2.5 ounces—got hiccips, not take more
A: diaper change, play time with mom until 1:05, yawned 1:00, 1:05, went upstairs, swaddled tried to listen to soft music and do small feed...only played with bottle and started to drift off. Did shh/pat, put in crib at 1:15, eyes popped open, kept trying to settle...she was quiet so I left room at 1:30, she whimpered maybe 2 times and then was asleep....
S: guessing 1:40
was in her room putting away clothes when she started to stir about 2:00, held joints...started to stir again 2:20, held joints... was in her room from 2:40-3:10 and she stirred/jolted every 20 min, like she never went into deep sleep

woke her at 3:40
E: 3:45-:55, 2.5 oz
A; sat on my lap watching baby einstein on laptop...yawned 3 times at 4:05, diaper change, bouncy seat 4:10 (so far) (as of right now it's 4:20 and she hasn't yawned any more and she's still playing in her bouncy seat)...

So even though she's yawning after about 1/2 hr A time after her 12:15 feed her A time was about 1.5 hr even though we started her WD a little after 1.  She did fall asleep independently!  And even though I was in there holding her through the jolts (not sure if she would have woken up but not taking the chance!) she slept until I woke her at 3:40 which is I'm guessing a 2hr nap (since I wasn't in the room when she fell asleep I am not exactly sure). 

What are you thoughts?  I'm thinking if I take her upstairs and finish A time with quiet activity and maybe implement a little of what Deb suggested (how tracy helped josie and her family with 45 min naps...by giving a small feed during WD, stretching A time quietly in her room)....then maybe we can move closer to a 3.5-4hr EASY. 

What do you think??

[ernurse05]

so the next time going down wasn't as easy (no pun intended).  Did pretty much the same thing, up in her room about 1 hr after being awake (3:40-4:40) started shh/pat in my arms, moved to crib about 4:45, eyes got wide open, really fussed, continued shh/pat until 5:05, sat back to see if she'd fall asleep on her own and she started crying again, continued to shh/pat until 5:15 when I think she fell asleep....so that'd be an A of 1 hr and 35 min. Am I just making her OT or am I doing this right???

[ernurse05]

I REALLY hope someone comes along to give me some advice.  I think that pushing for 1.5 hr awake time is too much, she's SO ready to go to sleep after about 45min-1hr.  After she woke from her catnap she wouldn't really eat so we did her bath and by the time we were done it had been almost a half hour of awake...I fed her and she was falling asleep during the feed...took 2 ounces and then I tried to get her to sleep and I had to shh/pat for 5 min to calm her down while I was holding her and then another 15 min in the crib.....I think I might have created an OT baby!!!   

ANYBODY see something I don't in our EASY?  Should we go back to 45min-1hr awake??? I'm just getting so frustrated...I feel like I spend the majority of our day trying to get her to sleep! SO PLEASE SOMEONE HELP ME!!!

[charmie]

Hello

I think you are right in that she might need more a time. However at this point I would forget about 3, 3.5, or 4hr EASY, but just follow her.  She might need 1hr 1st a time and 1hr15 for 2nd a time (just an example).  She is doing quite good naps though.  At this point I wouldn't worry about 3, 3.5, or 4hr EASY.  I would just follow her.  When she's tired put her down, then look at the clock, not the other way round.  Once you have an established routine you can work on extending a times and transitioning gradually to 3.5 or 4hr EASY.

You know exactly what you are doing.  You just need to trust your guts more.  I know how it feels.  You need the reassurance that you are doing the right thing.  But there will never be a better reassurance than the one your baby will give you.  But you don't need to despare when you don't find me or anyone else to respond to you promptly.  You are the one who knows your baby the best.  And you are doing just fine.  This doesn't mean you are not to come in search for help anymore, far from it.  Just that sometimes you need to rely more on your mummy instinct.  I learnt this when the boards were down for a couple of days, and couldn't rely on the site. 

xxx
charm