dropping her nap, 2yr molars or just messing with mummys head?

[NiknLily]

Hi
Lily will be 27m old and for last couple of weeks has started messing about sleep wise.  She has always been a really good sleeper, other than at transitions in routine.  She used to do a 12hr night and 1.5hr nap for the longest time.  Then she started waking earlier, not loads but noticeable iykwim and taking a while to get to sleep at nap and bedtime, just chatting to herself.  This isn't usual for Lily she has always gone to sleep within 5mins of going to bed/nap.  So I extended morning A time 30mins and moved bedtime 30min later and things where OK until she started preschool in september.  This meant no nap 2 days a week so I changed routine back to previous one shifting back those 30min increases coupled with early nights by 1hr on school days to compensate for OT, this worked really well.  Until couple of weeks ago when she skipped her nap on the monday, then had school on the tuesday and skipped her nap on the wednesday.  Thursday I kept her home from school and she did nap, I did some early nights and so I thought we had sorted out the little blip, she certainly wasn't OT anymore.

But, since she has been taking 30mins + to get to sleep for nap, just chatting away to herself (winding mummy up   ) then has taken as long to settle at night has had some nw's, not really long ones although she has had 1 1.5hr nw, mainly they have just been pesky nws and she might wake every 45mins for 2.25hrs at some point in the night and has started to wake a little early again, only 15/20mins but you could use her as an alarm set to 7am for most of her life.

We are still waiting on top 2 2yr molars but they haven't even bumped up yet, there is no sign of teeth coming, to be sure though I have given meds 30mins before nap and bedtime and it makes no difference.

So I figured maybe she just needed longer A times again now she has got used to missing her naps on school days and she is 3m older.  So I upped her morning A time by 15min and bedtime by 15min for 3/4days and she was still chatting and not settling to sleep like she usually does for another 15+mins, so I upped by another 15mins.  So far though it doesn't seem to have had the desired effect, today she skipped her nap again so was in bed by 6.30 asleep by 6.45pm, last night the later bedtime meant after she had talked to herself and called me upstairs too many times it was almost 8pm before she fell asleep.

I am going to try moving back that last 15mins, I'm thinking maybe pushing to 30min jump was too much BUT I'm also thinking is this it? is she starting to drop her nap, is the general restless nights because although she still takes a nap 5days a week maybe thats too much sleep for her.

I know she still needs a nap as when she skipped for 3days she did a 2hr nw, which she would normally only do when teething, but like I say I see no sign of teeth yet, at all.

Old routine on non school days was
wake up 7am
nap at 12.30pm
bedtime 7pm

routine I had moved to on non school days was
wake 6.45/7am
nap 1pm - 2/2.15pm
bed 7.30pm

Any thoughts on what might be going on would be much appreciated and if it is dropping her nap much needed advise on dealing with it

[lesorl]

bumping for you nik, since i am no help 

[becky1969]

LOL at messing with mom's head! does seem they like to do that sometimes, eh? 

First off, I think you did an excellent job trying to account for all the changes in her life -- teeth, nursery, etc.  Well done!

It's hard to say exactly what's going on, but I really don't think she's ready to drop her nap.  The NWs are the clue to that.  Most toddlers who are OK with dropping their nap sleep thru the night just fine without nap, though they might require an earlier bedtime than normal.  She's showing signs of being OT, and I think that those nursery days are just catching up with her.  I have a feeling that teeth are wearing her down a bit (even tho you can't see them, and meds aren't helping much).  I don't know why, but teeth seem to drain LOs! They aren't necessarily in pain either -- it must just require extra energy to push those teeth around under the gums, you know?

So, when she takes 30 minutes to fall asleep, how long does she nap? Does she only nap for 30 minutes, or do you still get a 1-1.5 hour nap out of her?

Honestly, I think I might be inclined to try a 12:00/12:15 nap and see what happens.  If that makes things better, then you know that OT was the problem and you can make bedtime earlier too.  That's the one thing you haven't really tried yet -- *less* A time than she used to do before nursery started.  Let's give that a try and see what happens.  If she gets really wound up, you can just take her out and let her play for a bit before putting her back down for nap at normal time.  But sleep deprivation is cumulative.  So, it's possible that after having no nap days for a long time it's really starting to wear her down so that on non-nursery days she just can't handle even her old A time.  Also, NWs will make her more tired than normal as well.  And then add in 2 year molars, and I think you have a very tired little girl!

Worth a try, don't you think? Please give it 3 days before throwing in the towel.  It sounds likeyou have an angel/textbook, but even they need a little time to get their body clocks changed around, you know?

HTH!

[NiknLily]

Thanks Becky & Leslie

Your spot on she is an angel/textbook toddler, shes so regular with her sleep most of the time.

Well saturday she dropped her nap again, so another early night but she slept fine through the night, which is typical she can handle no nap days very well and has done for getting on for a year already! Yesterday I gave meds again 30min before nap just to iliminate pain and put her down at 1pm for her nap and she slept till 2.30pm.  We haven't actually had 1.5hr naps for a while now so she must of needed it.  I put her down last night at 7.30 (gave meds before again) and it didn't take too long for her to settle to sleep, but still longer than normal, no nws but woke at 6.50, so still slightly early.

Today though I put her down at 1pm again, I forgot meds so she only had them 20mins before nap and what do you know she took 10mins of full on talking, not just chatting she was celebrating something, "yippee, woohoo...." coming over the monitor, then she suddenly went quieter and dropped of about 1.15pm.  She is still asleep at moment, she stirred at 45mins so slightly OT for this nap but should now sleep for 1.5hrs again. 

BUT and this is a big BUT I think, will check after nap, that I felt a tiny point of a tooth so I could have my culprit for the mess with sleep.  very strange though if I did feel a point as you can't see anything, even her gums don't seem to of changed size to accomodate new teeth.

So if it is teeth, what I will do is try keeping nap at 1pm for a few days but bring bedtime back to 7pm again and see what happens, if she keeps doing 1.5hr naps then if she is still slightly OT from all the messed up sleep and nap dropping then that should work to sort her out.  If it's not teeth I will try the early nap too.  Have to say I'm wary of early nap for her as she hasn't had nap that early for 9m or so and last time I did try an early nap she just talked right past sleep time and refused nap completly.  But its worth a shot :-)

thanks for your reply

Nik x

[becky1969]

Def. sounds like teeth are the problem!  I swear, those 2 year molars are buggers.  I would feel a pt, and then it would completely recede.  Owen took a full year to get all 4 teeth in! And we actually had teething symptoms AGAIN this week!    I just talked to the dentist about this whole thing last week, and he said that it's totally normal for them to have teething symptoms after the teeth are in.  He said we may even see teething symptoms until age 4.    WTH? I swore to my DH that these 2 yr molars were the last teeth until age 6, and he didn't believe me.  Now when my son shows teething symptoms over the next year my DH will think he's right.  Hate when that happens! 

Anyway, hope the early bedtimes continue to help.  As for early nap, you never know.  My son will be 3 at the end of the month, and he's now back on a napping schedule from when he was about 20 months.  It's weird.  I don't know if he's going through a dev. phase, if its the 2 yr molars, or what. 

[NiknLily]

Yep definitly a new tooth    Its so strange as she isn't teething the same as she did for all her other teeth, no actually tell a lie the bottom 2yr molars gave odd teething symptoms actually too, its been a good 3/4 months since they came in and I had actually forgotten that they did effect her differently to normal.

She only slept 1.15hr in the end today, so thats back to normal.  I'm not so phased now I know whats the cause of it all and being angel/textbook even if things get a bit ugly for a while I know at least it will return to normal sooner or later.

Put her down at 7 tonight and she still not asleep (7.35) now the local roundtable group are coming up the road with santa on his sleigh pumping out xmas songs