Author Topic: Newborn sleep questions  (Read 4471 times)

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Offline tassie

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Newborn sleep questions
« on: November 30, 2008, 05:50:20 am »
Hi there,

Our gorgeous little girl is only 11 days old, but we really wanted to start as we mean to go on.  I don't have any family or social support where I live, so am really winging it in terms of how to look after a baby so have a few questions.  At times (okay, most of the time) I really feel quite overwhelmed and unsure of what I am doing, what my baby wants.  I guess a hefty dose of the baby blues doesn't help, but every day is getting a little easier for me, but unfortunately not for baby.

My first question - up until 4 days ago, DD would put herself to sleep as easy as pie.  Now it seems to take us about 30 mins (sometimes 15 mins, sometimes up to 1.5hrs) of shh-pat to get her down.  Often, after about 10 minutes of being calm, she will wake out of her sleep with a hefty cry.  A pick up and pat normally fixes it, but she fusses quite a lot, squirms and wails for a few minutes first before calming.  Sometimes it seems to be wind (she burps when I pick her up), sometimes it just seems to be fussing. Is this normal?  Is it just DD coming out of her "newborn coma"?  The first week seemed so easy, now it's feels like it's getting quite difficult. My mum says I should put her to sleep on the boob or rock her to sleep but I really don't want to get into bad habits (and it's easy to tell someone what to do over the phone!)

At times she will wake herself after 1.5-2 hours, sometimes she will need waking after 3.  I am trying to be consistent and waking her for feeds after 3 hrs.  Is it okay to feed again after these shorter naps or should I make her wait?  I'm finding that I'm watching the clock and getting more and more anxious as the 2 hour mark approaches because I know "here we go again" and then I wonder if I struggle with this at 11 days how on earth am I going to get through whatever is to come!

Also a quick feeding question, if she seems to be finished feeding but them roots for more as I'm doing the wind down (just before laying in the cot) does that mean she just wants soothing, or she is still hungry?

I guess I just need some encouragement, it's hard doing it alone!


Offline JudyLee

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #1 on: November 30, 2008, 11:09:55 am »
Hugs and welcome!!!!!!!
Congrats on your little girl. Here's to a wonderful life full of unexpected blessings.

My memory of my beginning days was that you can't count what happened in the first week. That's why they send you home from hospital when they do, its just before the baby coma wears off. And then you feel like you dont know anything and what the?....

When you say you wake her if you need to after three hours - is that day, night or both?
Do you swaddle her?

Just remember, that you are learning, but so is she. This is all brand new to her, and she needs to learn what life is all about and what signals mean. Thats why EASY works so well. It gives her a pattern to get used to and gets to predict what comes next.

Don't be too hard on yourself. The first three months are going to be a fast learning curve.
Just remember that you are looking for a happy baby, so take it easy on yourself too. Try not to stress or life will just get too hard, and when you are learning with a new baby, you don't need that extra stress.

I agree with Jay - you really need to watch your A times. Remember that A time starts the moment she wakes up.
One trick I got told was to remember that they can't get out of the way of things, so watch what is in their face. If you have a cot mobile, try to use it only during A time. They also need their own space at times, so if they just want to lie looking at the light through the window...relax and enjoy the view!

Good luck, hugs and once again welcome. You've come to an excellent place here...I count the BW site as my sanity. ;)

Offline EllenS

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #2 on: November 30, 2008, 11:55:52 am »
Agree with pp, at this stage it's more about learning your baby and her cues, and getting into a good rhythm so you know her best length of A time, etc.  Don't worry about going to sleep independently until a bit later, she will be in and out, up and down all the time - things will get more regular in a few weeks.

The rooting could be hunger or could be soothing, VERY hard to tell with a newborn.  If you are BF, best to offer the breast at pretty much any sign of interest for the first 6 weeks - YOU need the stimulation as much as she needs the food, it determines your supply for the long-term.  Do try to make sure and keep her awake for the whole feed, sometimes they do that because they zonked out and didn't get full. 

Everybody feels just like you do at this stage - "what the heck am I doing?  What's going on? What does this mean?  How much longer can I cope?  Will it be like this forever?"

Hang in there, it DOES get easier!  Pretty soon you will be an expert on your baby, and she will know you too, and her needs will get more predictable, and she'll develop a body clock (around 8 weeks), etc.  Nothing is a habit at this stage, nothing is permanent so do what you need to do to get both of you some rest.

Hugs!
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Offline tassie

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #3 on: November 30, 2008, 21:53:56 pm »
Thanks all for your replies, the encouragement is amazing.  I already feel more confident - the power of words!

Quote (selected)
When you say you wake her if you need to after three hours - is that day, night or both?
Do you swaddle her?

I've only been waking her during the day, and letting her sleep as long as she wants between about 10/11pm and 7/8am.  The most she's slept so far has been 3 hours, but I'm happy with that.  As for the swaddling, I only learned how to do that two days ago, they were very anti swaddling in the hospital and pro demand feeding.  After some initial protests the swaddling seems to be working well especially if I let her keep her hands near her face - she is good at finding and sucking on her fists.

A time is usually 45-60mins total (including feeding and nappy / clothes changes), does that sound about right?

Offline EllenS

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #4 on: November 30, 2008, 23:16:08 pm »
Sounds pretty good in terms of A time, and good that she's waking every 3h at night - you wouldn't want to let her go longer than that until she's about 2 weeks old anyway.  Demand feeding is important at this stage if you are bf, she will naturally start lengthening the time between feeds if she's getting a good feed.
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Offline JudyLee

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #5 on: December 01, 2008, 00:00:06 am »
Isn't she wonderful for giving you three hours at a spell overnight!

We found that the swaddling worked really well for us as our DD really startled easily and it was always as she was drifting off to sleep. It's a lovely comfort for them as well. If it starts to get really hot, just use a muslin as it works well in summertime.

Enjoy!

Offline angelamk1

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #6 on: December 01, 2008, 04:00:35 am »
I feel that it is so important to get to know your own lo's personality and ways.  Different babies liek different things so use these rearly days to play around and find what works for you both.  You can use some AP but in a way that promotes independent sleep.  So rocking and singing but not till sleep, just till sleepy.  I still rock and sing my boy before i put him down wide awake and so now it is a cue that sleep is about to happen. When he was little though he loved this and if i couldn't get him to sleep any other way this would work.  So if shh/pat isn't working try some other things too. 

Try the ideal ie baby down awake but be prepared to break the rules often!  One thing i found really helpful was the Dunstan Baby Language DVD. I got it from my library and it literally changed my life!!  Both my dh and i could understand what our baby wanted.  It teached you the different cries and what they mean.

Ditto on the swaddling, that could be why she is jolting awake.  Have you sat and watched her get off to sleep (out of her sight if poss).  That can teach you so much about what is going on.  It might be that she needs her hands out of her way even though she seems to enjoy having them.

The rooting could just be that you're touching her cheek with your body or arm.  If she's had a good feed earlier i wouldn't pay it much attention.  With the clock watching - i think all new mums do that.  These are the hardest times when you are getting to know your lo and deal with all the emotions and feeling of incompetence. And all on less sleep than you've ever had before!  In a few weeks and months this will all be behind you.  In the meantime be kind to yourself and your lo.  Enjoy her and take lots of photos, she'll never be this new again.  This website is great for advice but it can't substitute knowing your own baby and listening to your instincts.  Sounds like you're doing a great job i reckon.
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Offline mum101

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #7 on: December 01, 2008, 08:17:55 am »
hi,
I wanted to start straight away on EASY, put to bed awake etc. but the first month at least is really just survival, and so feeding to sleep, rocking etc. was fine in my books! 

After 1 month I sort of got a sense of DS's personality, and HOW to get him to sleep which is really just trial and error.  He loved the dummy, but it would always fall out, he didn't fall asleep often on the boob and STAY asleep etc. just a few things I worked out in that first month.

I did use what I could to get him to sleep, but only as a last resort. Now he pops him off to sleep fairly nicely, awake on his own (and still with his dummy   :P  ).

We roughly work on an EASY plan unless I'm trying to get my milk up, then it's EAESY  :)

good luck and enjoy your new bubba.
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Offline JudyLee

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #8 on: December 05, 2008, 09:44:14 am »
 Oh boy do I agree with Angela! ;D It sounds too easy, but it works. If you can't find Dunstan baby language, check out the Oprah website archives as she did a great interview on this very topic. And they showed the different cries and taught it to a group of women who couldn't believe how quickly it worked.

« Last Edit: December 05, 2008, 09:45:47 am by JudyLee »

Offline b0nni3

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #9 on: December 08, 2008, 11:59:51 am »

Since this is a board about newborn naps, I thought maybe i could post a question here too.

Firstly, congrats Tassie for the new addition to your family! I had exactly the same experience as you did - my son was clockwork for 10 days. Every 3 hours you could see him licking his lips and starting to rouse from sleep and getting hungry. I even went to dinner with my family and the baby at a really fancy restaurant and basically fed him and put him back down so easily. It was some consolation given how painful it was to breastfeed him! But after the first ten days he went nuts (woke up!) and I thought, "What the heck?!?!"

Angela is right about being kind to yourself. I was clock watching so much for the first four weeks and I think it contributed to some mild post-partum depression and anxiety. It also made me see my baby as a problem rather than seeing him as who he is and getting to know him. I would agree that it is really important to be compassionate to yourself during the first few weeks, even months. You have plenty of time to put your baby on routine. That's something I'm still having to learn (and my son is only 5 weeks old). The thing with baby books is that they make you feel like if you don't put our baby on a routine in Day 1 then they will end up being the worst babies/kids with major eating/sleeping problems. Also a lot of them make it seem like it's the parent's fault (like they are doing something wrong) if the child does not respond to the routine. I don't think that's true! If all babies really are different (which they are) then surely some will respond and others will not as well. I learned that from a friend whose first baby was on EASY after about 8 weeks, but whose second baby just wanted to be held/nursed/touched all the time so she gave up on the routine and co-slept, demand fed, and he was MUCH happier than when he was on a routine. Two totally different approaches for two siblings.

My experience with EASY and my son is that I really had to pick and choose the things that worked. He is 5 weeks old and does not respond to shh/pat. We're slowly learning to gauge when his cries are just fussy cries (and we can wait before we respond with just patting and sitting next to him) and which ones are distress cries (when we'd respond immediately and pick him up). We couldn't have known what was which unless we experienced his crying and had trial and error. Also, before I would be so adamant about his nap times - if he woke up in the middle of a nap happy and cooing, I would try to force him to go back down (resulting in anxiety on my part and a baby who went from happy to ed off because I was forcing him to do something he didn't need/want to do). That goes against the idea of respecting your child and his needs. I consider it a "successful" EASY day if my son is able to do EASY for like, 75% of the day. :)

I have a quick question for everyone about naps and night time sleep. My 6-week old is on a relatively (on the good days) stable 2.5-3 hour EASY but his naps are about 2 hours long (E+A is about an hour combined in the mornings). I try to start the day at 7am (give or take 20 minutes) and he is quite sluggish for much of the day - it really is an effort to keep him awake after a feed (though we don't seem to have a problem of him being a snack feeder because I make sure he really gets a full feed). I watch for tiredness cues to put him down for naps and he goes down really easily when I do that. On a good day his routine (based loosely on a combination of EASY and BabyWise) looks something like this:

E+A 7-8am
S  8-10am (I NAP TOO because this nap is generally, uninterrupted - he stirs but doesn't actually wake in the middle)
E+A 10-11am
S 11-12:30pm (I try to hold him out till the 1pm feed if he wakes early; usually he sleeps right up till 1, or just before. Sometimes he will wake 45 min into the nap, but be WIDE awake and happy, in which case I just let him hang out with me and wait to see if he goes back down. If he does, great; if not, I try not to stimulate him too much in the hopes that he will still have some decent A time after the next feed.)
E+A 1-2pm
S 2-4pm
E+A 4-5:30pm (this is when he starts to be able to stay awake for a tad longer after feeds, but he also  gets fussy this time of day)
S 5:30-6:45-ish - sometimes this ends up as only a 45 min nap and he sits around watching us. Sometimes this period is meltdown time.
Bath at 6:45 (We try to be very very consistent with the bath, feed, and quiet A time and use that to reset anything that has come before. So for example if he didn't nap at all or didn't nap well, we still try to do the bath at the same time, give or take 20 minutes.)
E+A 7-7:40pm (A is just sitting around watching my husband and I eat dinner); we watch for tiredness cues to put him down so sometimes this E+A can be 30 mins, sometimes it can be an hour and a half.
S till about 10pm
E 10pm (and down for the night)

We start running into trouble in the evening. He is generally a bit fussy after the 4pm feed and the routine can get unpredictable.  For the past week, he has been getting really awake after his 10pm feed. Like, WIDE EYED awake - the type of awakeness that I wish he would have during the day so that it would be less of an effort trying to get him to stay awake during his A times in the day! He is _so_ much fun when he is really awake. But we don't want him to be awake at 10pm! He would feed and we would have very little success putting him back down (we've done everything). He seems to go down ok for his middle of the night feeds (usually there are 2 between midnight and 7am, but not at consistent times); sometimes he will fuss at around 6:30am but I try to hold him out till 7am to feed again, especially if he was fed at 5-ish).

I have two questions:
1. Do you think he has day and night mixed up? I try really really hard to get him to wake up for his A time in the day but it is VERY hard to have E+A for more than an hour. I mean, I can wake him up with a bath, but he goes back to sleep 3 minutes after he is dressed. I don't know why he would be so spontaneously awake after the 10pm feed. He also seems to have particular problems with wind at the 10pm feed - three nights in a row we've picked him up after a few minutes of fussing after the feed, and he's let out burps and minor spit-ups. So
2. Do you think he is getting too many hours of naps in the day and that is contributing to his wide awake-ness in the evening? I've tried to stretch his A time but it usually backfires on me; he gets OT and fights the sleep, or he doesn't nap well.

I've done everything I can to try to prevent him mixing up night and day - he naps in the living room in the day where there's a fair amount of light - which doesn't seem to bother him, and in the night he sleeps in his crib in a dark room with a small night light. The majority of the time I am able to feed him in the middle of the night and put him back down with him fussing minimally (unless he had wind or gas) in about 30-40 min.

If anyone has similar experiences or thoughts, please do share!
 
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Offline b0nni3

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #10 on: December 08, 2008, 12:05:17 pm »
Sorry for the long post before, didn't realize I was going on for a bit!

Can someone also tell me about how to decide whether my son is over tired or whether he's not been getting enough activity time? I'm pretty sure his 10pm awakeness is not due to oveertiredness because he goes down for his naps so well and is generally ok in his naps. Could his 10pm awakeness be due to not being awake enough in the day? How could I remedy that (if I can't get him to stay awake during his A time? I've even tried to put him on the kitchen floor several times  (cool linoleum) just to see if he'd stay awake...he slept soundly on it for 5 minutes at which point I gave up and put him in his comfy moses basket).
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Offline marissa.church

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #11 on: December 08, 2008, 22:54:41 pm »
How can i help my 1 month old settle into sleep? He is very jumpy throughout his naps and at night. we try to shush and pat any other ideas? Is that ok to have them nap in the living room in the light she says in the book to have them in their bed, or am I mis reading?
Thank you

Offline angelamk1

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #12 on: December 09, 2008, 00:21:13 am »
It sounds like you've got a great little fella with good naps and sleeps and his routine looks ok to me (not that i'm an expert on routine!!). 

It doesn't sound to me like he has day and night confused as he is sleeping longer at night and you've done all the right things.  A lot of babies are still really sleepy at that age and an hour A time is perfectly normal. As long as he is awake enough to have good feeds then i wouldn't worry about that too much.  My son was very sleepy and i had to poke him all through feeds to get him to eat enough.  He also napped and slept really well which is the payoff for having a sleepy baby!  I would just accept that your son is that way and know that when he is able to be more alert he will be.  There's no rush for more activity and in fact rest and sleep are the best things for development so encouraging sleep is the best thing you can do.

I really don't know why he's so alert at that 10pm time but i don't think it's necessarily anything wrong like day/night confusion or OT or UT.  In a week it might be completely different again so try not to worry too much.  I know with my son i'd try and 'fix' all these things as they arose but really they were just blips and within a week or two i could hardly remember what the stress had been as we were onto a new one!  I know for myself with the next baby i'm going to try and 'fix' him/her less and enjoy them more. 
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Offline angelamk1

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #13 on: December 09, 2008, 01:22:19 am »
Marissa - you have to do what works for you. I started my having my son's curtains open and when he was little this was fine but as he got older and more alert i found he slept better if they were closed, but they're not blackout ones so this light is dim rather than dark.  The thinking behind having them open is that it teaches them to sleep in light as well as dark, which helps them be a bit more portable.  Most people's curtains in the bedroom will show a difference between day and night so i never worried about day/night confusion. BW recommends it to be very dark, but it really depends on what works for your baby. 

If your lo is jumpy i would definitely try and minimise stimulation so in his own room with curtains pulled might be best. If they can and do nap in the lounge that is fine and does help again with being able to take them anywhere.  I think it is up to you and what suits your family culture.  I prefer my son in his room so i don't have to tiptoe around him during the day naps, but that's a personal preference.

In saying that though i do regularly (2-3x week) sleep my lo in other places ie carseat, stroller, other peoples beds, portacot etc so that he can and will sleep anywhere.  But he is textbook so it works for us, some babies wouldn't find that as easy.  It was important to me that we did this as we go out a lot and i wanted him to fit into our lifestyle. You need to ask yourself what is important to you and work with that.  With a jumpy baby it might just be getting some decent length naps fullstop!  Do you swaddle?  Here's some links you might find useful.

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=26672.0

http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64277.0
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Offline b0nni3

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Re: Newborn sleep questions
« Reply #14 on: December 09, 2008, 15:08:55 pm »
Hey Marissa, one thing that my mom said my grandma did with me was to swaddle me with something heavy on my front, like a small bean bag type thing. So it kind of mimics you keeping your hand on your baby's front and they are less jumpy. For my son I use a bag filled with lavender or rice or beans, maybe something like 10cm x 20cm, and swaddle him with it in it. You don't want it too full but you want it sufficiently full so that it feels heavy on him and makes him feel settled (think of it like how we like sleeping with heavy blankets on us).
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