How long to shush & pat?

[home alone]

My LO is 8wk old.  She stopped taking naps for a wk now and I am not sure if I am going the right direction and it's just a phase or I am doing something wrong.
I take her in to 4S after 1hr from waking.  In the dark room I swaddle and sit with her and shush & pat for 5min or until she yarns then she's in the crib.
I shush & pat until she calms down and falls asleep.  then stop shushing and just pat for 5-10min and I lay my hand on her for another 5min then remove hand.
Then in another 5min she wakes.  Sometimes cries and other times just wakes up.
She doesn't jolt but she squirms and her legs move a lot so I lay my arms on her.

1. Does the 20 sleep cycle starts when she close her eyes and "falls asleep" or when she stops squirming?
2. Should I be shushing and patting longer until she stops squirming?

Thanks,

[marensmama]

Is she swaddled?  That will help a lot.  As far as how long to pat/shh, I'd experiment with it.  Stay close and pat/sh if she wakes up to extend the nap.  I pat/shh'd until Hayden was asleep, tapering off and then removing myself, then if she stirred I'd start up again until she was back asleep.  As she got older and better at napping, I cut back on the pat/shh so it didn't become a prop. 

HTH! Let me know how you get on. 

[home alone]

Hi
Yes she's swaddled from day one.  I was reading "Teaching Sleep to Newbaby" Thread and realize 45min nap is common for this age.  Do you shush & pat as long as it takes for now and cut back when nap is fully established?
It's been a real struggle for the past 5days.  She has not taken any nap longer than 45min if at all.
I normally stop shushing when she looks asleep and was wondering if this not a good idea.
Thanks

[marensmama]

I didn't use pat/shh with DD1 and DD2 is a touchy/spirited babe so I had to modify p/s for her.  I held my hand on her chest and only shh'd loud enough for her to hear me, so it was like she had to strain to hear it.  At first I did it until she was asleep and for a few minutes after, gradually getting quieter and slowly lifting my hand off of her, and later I did it less and less until she no longer needed it at all.

Just remember that if her naps are less than an hour long, you'll need to shorten the next A time to compensate so she won't get OT.

[home alone]

I've read Tracey's interview and the both books many times and I've never really paid much attention to the "types".  After reading your post I realized that's so important. 
After a whole week of 30-45min naps I finally put her down for a 2hr nap!!
I shushed for 10min with my arm on her and blocked her view.  Then arm only for another 10min. Relay the arm and shush at 45min mark.
I also noticed that at the 2nd nap her jolt & squirms weren't as strong as before.  Perhaps bc she's not OT?

Do I continue this until when her naps are consistent then do I start cutting back on shush & pat or sooner?

Thanks again.

[marensmama]

Wow!  Great work!  I think you're right, the jolts do seem a bit less startling to them when they aren't OT.

As far as how long to pat shh for, I did it pretty consistently for the first while and then cut back.  I was her prop since she had terrible reflux and had only ever slept on me for the first 7 weeks so she needed lots of pat/shh to get through that.  Still worked for us until 9 months on the few occasions that she got OT and needed help settling too, so it's a great tool.

Let me know how you get on!!

[home alone]

We had a couple of real tough days..  Naps were all over the place due to PED appt and family visits. 
I am wondering how important it is to keep the "time".  I mean if my EASY is every 3hrs, is it really important to stick to 7am 10am etc every day?
I am trying to keep the bed time at 7pm but nap times vary despite my efforts to extend the nap to meet the time.
Currently, I am only focusing on following EASY order and not doing AP and also extending the naps. 

[marensmama]

The best thing you can do is find the balance between consistency and flexibility.  No, it doesn't have to be exact, and you can't worry about the days where things are all over the place.  You just need to make the better routine days outnumber the days where you have to roll with it.  Does that make sense?

FWIW, at this age, I made sure my DD2 had one good nap and her catnap at home in her crib.  The other naps were done while we were out doing activities for DD1, and however long they lasted, we just rolled with it.  Bedtime was consistent for sure.  We did pretty well with that, considering DD2 is a spirited/touchy refluxer.

I think you are doing a great job, enjoy these times, they go so fast, you'll look back on these days for the rest of your life! 

[home alone]

I must say with DD1 being home bcg X-mas and of the weather. it's been impossible to put dd2 to sleep w/o OT.  dd2 also had weight loss issues so i bf 30min + bottle feed + pump so she's always OT.  I am hoping things will sort itself as it did for dd1 around 6mths as long as I don't AP.
Thanks for much for your support.

[marensmama]

As long as you're not stressing about it and she's having good nights, the wait and see approach is fine.  If the LO has weight loss issues, that needs to be dealt with first, absolutely.  Any health issues will affect routine anyways, so just roll with it all and try to avoid AP as much as you can.  Even if you end up with props, if that's what they need to get them through their health troubles, you can always wean the prop later.  My DD2 has reflux and she slept upright on me for the first few months.  I was the prop for sure, but she wouldn't sleep otherwise.  When she started to get better on her meds we were able to teach independent sleep and she now does fabulously.  Enjoy these first few months!! 

[home alone]

Hi again
i decided today that i am going to really start nap training again starting today until Monday.
So i won't go out with a sling and only extend nap with shush & pat. 
It was really difficult.  she woke at 6am and I did this until 4pm then i caved in & gave final catnap in a swing.  I think she did only 1X 30min nap and rest are 45min.  This is a big improvement since I think i've avoided OT but I noticed she would yawn after only 20min wake time. 
After today I am not sure if I should continue or postpone until she 3mths so I can do pu/pd.  My body is killing me.
Maybe follow your advice of concentrating on a afternoon nap & catnap only.
I guess after reading tracy's book again I thought it would be easier to train now than later.
Also, I tried to do w2s with the naps but it hasn't really worked out for me.
I read the book again & again but maybe I am not doing it right or it takes many tries?

[marensmama]

Hi!  Babies who are three months are still too young for PU/PD, and it is a method that works great but is only to be used on babies that are 4 months old or older and only when nothing else has worked, including pat/shh.  Here's a couple links if you haven't read them already:
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64275.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64168.0

w2s my not work all the time, and that's OK.  Each time it does work you're helping them learn to transition through the jolts and they'll do it on their own.  Pat shh is a fabulous method, it worked with my touchy/spirited LO who suffered with reflux, and it worked with her even at 9 months of age when she was OT and in hospital.  It is worth the effort, but I do remember those exhausting days too.

I don't think giving sleep training two days to work is realistic, if I'm being honest with you.  I think you can get a good start though and you might see some improvement by then.  Maybe post your routine from today and tomorrow (when the day's done) and I can look to see if a routine tweak might help things along as well. 

Big {{{{{{Hugs}}}}}} I know it's hard but it will be worth it in the end. 

[home alone]

Hi again.  I went back to FAQ and read more about W2S. I found one called modified w2s and it actually worked this morning.
One on the book was not successful.  I misread about pu/pd and thanks for reminding me that it's for 4mths & up.
I thought I should give 3 days for sleep training since the story about Jodie in FAQ mentions that she started to see improvement with her 4mth old in 3 days for naps.  
I would love for your to look at my EASY to see what I am missing.
My goal really is for me to learn the skills to read LO's language so that I could guide her.  I really can't teach her to sleep cos I don't understand so much stuff.
yesterday
E6:10
A6:30 (40MIN)
S7:05 (45MIN) SHUSH & PAT UNTIL 8:20
E8:25 (15)
A8:40 (5)
S9:05 (40MIN) SHUSH & PAT UNTIL 10:30

S10:30 (35MIN)
E11:10 (15)
A11:25 (10)
S12:15 ( FELL ASLEEP AND WOKE 3 TIMES)
A1:10PM (10)
S1:30 (30MIN)
E2:05 (15)
A2:20 (5)
S3:00 (1HR)
E4:00
A4:15 (35MIN)
S5:00 (30MIN) ON A SWING
A5:30-6:00 BATH
S6:15 (30MIN) ON A SWING COS SHE WON'T TAKE EAT
E 6:45-7:15
S8:50
E11:15 DF
E3:15AM
TODAY
E7:30-8:10
A8:10(10)
S9:00 (1HR30MIN)USING W2S
E11:00-11:20
A11:20 (25)
S11:55 (1HR) (SLEPT IN A SLING)
E1:00PM (15)
A1:15(20)
S2:00-2:45 TRIED TO EXTEND UNTIL 3:00 AND SHE WOKE UP HAPPY
A3:00 (15)
S TRIED FOR 15MIN BUT NO NAP
E3:30-4:05
A4:05 (10)
S4:30(50MIN)
A5:20-6:00 BATH
E 6:00-6:30
E 7:20 (TOOK FULL FEED)
E 8:40 ( TOOK FULL FEED)

[marensmama]

Hi there!  So for yesterday, that first nap was likely 45 minutes because the A time wasn't long enough.  LOs this age can usually handle 75-80 minutes of A time, and she only had 55.  That first A time is generally shorter than the average A time, but at this age it's a matter of 10-20 minutes... I'd have tried 65 minutes.  Then the next A time needed to be shorter, since you need to shorten A time after a short nap.  Getting the first A time/nap of the day is crucial to the rest of the day.  The rest of the day is kind of all over the place, but you just need to remember to shorten the A times after short naps to prevent OT.  When the LO is OT, the jolts and transitions are harder for them to get through, settling at all is difficult for them.  If you are having a day where OT seems to be ruling... then put baby in the sling or swing and just get some decent sleep out of her.

HTH, please let me know how you make out!

[home alone]

maybe i went too far with A time today. I gave 65min A before wind down and she woke after 35min but i extended the nap by resting my arm on her body so she got 1.5hr nap in the morning and also 1.25hr nap in the afternoon.  I feel like things are improving yet I am holding her the whole time so I am worry that i might be holding too long. I guess I should worry about that when naps get more established?
Am I on the right track here?
i am hunched over the crib all day long so I feel like I am doing something wrong.