Author Topic: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!  (Read 4829 times)

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Offline vickyandnieve

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Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« on: January 05, 2009, 21:11:02 pm »
Hi, I'm a first time mum looking for some help!
My 18 month old daughter Nieve has never been a good sleeper and at best wakes around 3 times a night. She goes through stages of waking 6/7 times a night (like now)! I would like to train her to sleep by herself. At the moment I bottle feed her to sleep while holding her and she needs a bottle and me to fall back to sleep when she wakes. I have started giving her just water after midnight as the nurse said maybe she was waking for the milk, but this doesn't seem to have made any difference. She will sleep for a couple of hours during the day but has to be coaxed into staying asleep and it's not easy. She is a spirited child - didn't need the test to know that! She is very on the ball and has been early in most of the developmental stages. I live in France and here they are quite into homeopathic medicine – my doctor suggested giving her calming syrup which I think calms her a bit generally but doesn't seem to make any difference with sleeping.
I've read some other posts about sleep training and I'd like to try the gradual removal method but not sure where to start as she currently falls asleep in my arms...if I put her in her bed awake she goes crazy! How can I make the first steps? Any tips on making a plan would be most appreciated.
Thanks, Vicky
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Offline Mama2boys

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #1 on: January 05, 2009, 21:56:02 pm »
Hi Vicky,

Welcome to the forum I am sur eyou will find loads of support and help here.

Firts thinsg first, you probably need to get her rid of the bottle in the night habit.n its probably contributing to her NW. Even if its water she is use dto the habit of waking up so you probably need to slowly get rid of that and then atke it form there. its also not very good for her teeth to be taking in milk late at night and not brushing.

What worked for us was slowly reudcing/diluting the milk till it was water and then my son relized it wa snot worth wkaing up for.

Also could multiple NW be linked to her teething?

Could you please post her daily schedule, it would help everyone give you guidance.
9 and 6, oh boy!

Offline speechie

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #2 on: January 06, 2009, 01:24:32 am »
Hi- welcome to the boards
Yes, please post your schedule like this:
Wake:7am
Eat:breakfast 8am
nap:12-2 etc etc
that way we can see if anything needs tweaking.

Does your daughter ever fall asleep on her own for naps, in the car, etc?

She is old enough now that she understands pretty much everything you say. I guess I would try taking her to buy a special cup of her own for night time. filling it with water. Telling her if she wakes that she can drink from her cup herself and go right back to sleep. I know some folks put a sippy cup of water in the crib- that way when the LO wakes and complains of thirst, they just hand over the cup and go back to sleep...
It is hard if she relies on being rocked in your arms. I had to stay in my son's room and lean over the crib, hugging him to give comfort, but not picking him up. He was MAD when I started this. I guess there's really no easy way, but in the end, it is worth it for the sleep you gain. You may have a few rough weeks as you go through this. Stay consistent above all once you have created your plan.
Hugs, let us know how you plan things!
Cathie
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Offline vickyandnieve

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #3 on: January 06, 2009, 15:02:47 pm »
Thank you so much for your replies - I'm sure all parents know how it feels, i go through stages of thinking i have no idea what I'm doing!! So it's lovely to have people out there to help...
OK, Nieves's day goes something like this:

8am (ish) wakes
8.30-9am breakfast
9.30 wash
12.30-1pm lunch
2pm-3.30 nap
4pm milk + biscuit
5.30-6pm supper
8.30pm (ish) into pjs, story, milk, bed

sometimes she wakes 1/2 hour after going to sleep, sometimes will go till 11.30...

After reading Mukta's reply, I'm going to try giving her the evening milk before she goes to bed, then only water when she wakes.

Going to have to finish this message tomorrow, I'm being called!!

Thanks xx
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Offline speechie

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #4 on: January 06, 2009, 19:32:38 pm »
hugs and courage! It takes a long time to break habits and a lot of patience and love. Remember to be loving but firm, and definitely comfort her as she goes through this- she's going to quite possibly be very mad when you change things, but she will adapt and eventually embrace the new routine!
Cathie
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Offline vickyandnieve

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #5 on: January 08, 2009, 14:07:41 pm »
Ok, eventually got back to the computer!

So, to follow on... Nieve does occasionally fall asleep in the car but only if it's her normal nap/sleeptime, she wasn't one of these babies for who the car was a fail-safe sleep-bringer! She never falls asleep on her own.

Cathie - you said that you comforted your son by leaning over and hugging without picking him up - i presume he eventually stopped going mad... how did you get him to lie down and how long did he take to go to sleep like that at the beginning?
I guess the next stage would be comforting her from a chair next to her bed and going from there?? I have to admit i feel a little lost!
I will take her to get her night time cup - good idea...

Another thing is, (i hope I'm not making excuses) she is already a lively, stubborn girl and i think she's going through her 'independence' time now as everything is 'no'!! Eating, dressing, nappy changing etc are all a struggle and the last couple of visits to nursery have been awful with her screaming for me not to leave, even though i only leave her for a half hour (i left in tears this morning!). It makes me wonder if it's a bad time to start the sleep training. On the other hand, there's always something going on and if not now then when...
On top of this i REALLY need to start learning to drive - it was a new year resolution last year so this year it HAS to be done! Again maybe I'm making excuses but you kind of need to be awake to drive don't you?!!

Looking forward to reading replies...

Vicky xxx
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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #6 on: January 08, 2009, 20:11:09 pm »
OH hugs about the separation anxiety! Sad when they don't want you to leave- happily it usually peaks about 18 months then subsides. That may be part of the issue at night too.

I too have a lively child- have you checked out the support for spirited children thread on the preschoolers and beyond section?? I do think it's an okay time to be sleep training. you may need to wait out the SA a bit, but you should see results in the next few weeks.

I literally would bend over the crib bar, hugging Nick around the neck/back. He'd cry and try to climb me, but I just hugged him over and over telling him it was time for him to sleep in his crib, that I wasn't rocking him in the chair, but I'd stay with him till he was calm. I also told him endlessly, that MAMA will ALWAYS come back for you. he usually would give up with in 15-30 mins and I could either put my hand on his back or leave the room. It's so different what works for each child...he always flopped all around and would finally settle.
Where in France are you? I've visited the cote d'azur, paris, and I'd love to get to Brittany someday in the distant future when I can travel again!
Cathie
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Offline vickyandnieve

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #7 on: January 10, 2009, 22:49:07 pm »
Hi Cathie, thanks for your reply.

I live in southern Burgundy, an hour or so north of Lyon. Lovely in the countryside but very cold the last couple of weeks, -6 in the daytime!
Being in France is another reason why this forum is so good - my french isn't bad but it's so much easier to explain things properly in english! What country are you in?

I'll read up about spirited children in the other section - Nieve is the best thing ever - amazing, funny and clever but rather hard work!!

I think the SA is linked to her new independence - she wants to do it all on her own but it also scares her. Apparently i was the same as a child!

One question - i read another post about NW which sounded similar to us and for them it all seemed linked to schedule. Does our timing sound ok to you? She used to nap around 11.30, then after talking to our local nurse (re sleep probs) i worked quite hard to get her nap later so her pm awake time was less. Am i putting her to bed too late? Although I guess she needs to learn to go to sleep on her own whatever the cause of waking.

Anyway, my plan will be something like this, doing each step until she seems settled (mostly writing this down for myself!) :

Step 1
give milk before going to bedroom then only water at night
in bedroom put in pjs, read story, cuddle in chair for few mins
put in bed and cuddle etc til asleep


Step 2
put mattress next to her bed
put her in bed, comfort her from mattress, hold her hand, sing etc

Step 3
move mattress away a bit (her room's not very big), comfort without touching, sing etc

Step 4
take mattress out, comfort as before from chair

I'll see how all this goes then plan next steps i think... does this sound ok?

Looking forward to hearing from you

Vicky xx


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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #8 on: January 11, 2009, 19:00:49 pm »
Hi Vicky-
sounds like a very good plan, depending on how things go, you may even be able to skip step 3 and go straight to a chair. It is NOT easy and my hat is off to you! I went through such a rough time with Nick, but he's never been one to fall asleep with me, even as a newborn-too stimulating. sigh.
Your schedule looks pretty good to me, you could try shifting the afternoon nap and bedtime both 30 mins earlier and see if that helps...
I'm in the USA- New Hampshire (new England area). I'm so grateful I found this website. I too am in the countryside and it can be hard to find many moms who are likeminded and have kids of the same age...My French is really apalling now. I used to speak fairly well, but I've had no practice time. Someday I'll travel again and I'll pick my languages back up!
Good luck and let me know how you do!
Cathie
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Offline vickyandnieve

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #9 on: January 11, 2009, 19:39:42 pm »
Hi Cathie,
Thank you so much for your help and advice. I've just put her down on night one of my plan and she went really easily - too easily!!! (maybe i cheated a bit by keeping the bottle going while i put her in her cot, but it is the first night!) I can hear her snoring through the intercom as i write!
We'll see how it goes, no doubt she'll wake up just as i put the first forkful of supper in my mouth...
I'll let you know how we get on after the first few nights.

Of course, after all this, we'll have to get on to daddy being able to put her to bed, ha ha! (btw, what are the abbreiviations: DH, DS, DD.. other than obviously husband, son and daughter - what's the 'D'??!)

Thanks again and here's to babywhispering in the countryside!
Vicky xx
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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #10 on: January 12, 2009, 02:44:20 am »
Well Done Vicky!!! ;D
Good start! I'm sure there will be challenges, but you know she can get there with some help!
D=dear, darling  and yes, h=husband s=son d=daughter...
somewhere on this site there is a link for abbreviations.
It is soooo fun to be on this site and definitely jump into the other threads as you become comfy- lots of lovely folks, funny too! Plus plenty of moms who need support and someone just to commiserate with...
Hoping she sleeps through!!
Cathie :-*
Cathie
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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #11 on: January 16, 2009, 22:00:15 pm »
Hi Cathie,
I'm on night 6 of my plan so i thought I'd let you know how it's going... and actually not as badly as i thought it might be!  :D

We're still at step 1, and it can take an hour or so to settle her when I first put her down, but i haven't had the screaming hissy fits i was expecting when i put her in the cot awake. She rolls around and is up and down for ages wanting cuddles and to hold on to my arm, then falls asleep and hasn't done her usual waking after 1/2 an hour... i get to eat a whole meal at once!!

She's still waking later at night and can take a while to settle again (up to 1 1/2 hours) but i haven't taken her out of her cot at all. It's not a complete success as I'm still giving her a milk bottle at the beginning of the night and water bottle to settle at NW but it's all such a massive step forward for us that i feel confident we'll get there in the end. DH is away next week so i won't worry so much about waking him up and i can try to remove the bottle dependency and maybe even move on a step. ATM she does get upset if i don't hover over the cot while she's settling.

She's definitely getting better each night - last night she only woke once at 5.20 and was asleep again within 15 mins (amazing) and tonight she only took 1/2 hour to fall asleep. So, fingers and toes crossed, we are on the up!! I'd like to be able to post this on the success stories thread! ;)

Going to la garderie (kindergarten!) is still a nightmare, i just leave her for 10 mins at the mo to try and get her used to me leaving again. She's red with screaming by the time i go back :(. But apparently today she was crying and playing at the same time so maybe that'll get better soon too ::).

Hope things are good with you...

Vicky  :-*

 
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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #12 on: January 16, 2009, 22:07:53 pm »
Hooray for the happy update! Well done! I am confident that the night sleep will continue to improve for you if you are persistent, consistent, and modify your plan as needed.
Hugs on the SA at la garderie- c'est si triste quand des petites crier! Pardon my rusty french- LOL! It will pass with time and she is in the prime time for strong SA.
We're doing fine with night sleep- naps are terrible as Nick is teething, but at least I'm sleeping fairly well at night! hugs and do keep me updated- I'm emotionally invested now!
Have a great weekend,
Cathie
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Offline vickyandnieve

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #13 on: January 17, 2009, 13:19:55 pm »
Hey, the french isn't all that bad!! ;D

Is Nick getting the second molars now? My doc says it's too early but i'm sure dd's on early stages of teething and they're the only ones left to come... she's been early with everything else! Must be nasty for them, poor babies!

 :-* :-* and one for Nick's teeth  :-*

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Re: Putting the Gradual Removal Method into pratice - help needed!
« Reply #14 on: January 17, 2009, 18:29:46 pm »
Nick's just getting his first molars- he's been quick to do all things physical, except teeth. He only has 8 so far. Yet, he walked at 8 mos...LOL- they all are so different.
He also woke up with a cold, so I've been keeping him comfy today. At least he's still STTN so far...fingers crossed!
Have a great weekend!
Cathie
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