13mth old, bedtime refusal :( need help!!

[huntersmummyinoz]

hmmm, well at 9.30 he finally went to sleep that's officially the longest it has ever taken to get him to sleep

SA - if it was that wouldnt he settle with me in the room??? even when i pick him up he still keeps crying and usually actually gets worse.

teething relief - yup, already did ibuprofen, we have given that at bedtime since the first antics started. am wondering if i need to give him more during the day tho, normally only do powders during the day, but maybe it is building up by bedtime...

reflux - increased meds and keeping off all those foods. he did have a tiny bit of chocolate today (bad mummy ) but that said, he had a shocker last night too and no different foods yesterday. 

OT - okay so i give him two naps for a couple of days, however to do that means late bedtime as he has started bedtime refusal on catnap days

i'd do WI/WO (havent ever done it before, like i said in pp we havent really had to do much sleep training since way back when) but i worry that there is something else going on?? plus he gets to the point where he is so upset that he sounds like he is going to vomit, hence GW would be better but he doesnt actually settle to be able to leave. 

[hrk]

Have to go, but will give it a think.  Hugs Kirry!

[sherry lynn]

Kirry - if it is OT -
Which it really sounds like that to me. I've only had those type of bedtimes when OT has gotten really bad. After about 4-6 days of one nap for us -
Then I think you might find that the catnap might have a slightly lower effect on bedtime.
For a 20 min catnap I would guess a minimum of 2 hour A time - but maybe up to three. I would take a late bedtime of this crazy madness of 2.5 hours to go to sleep - and crying and hollering. I remember I was in tears by the time I got Lyle down after a night like that. And I went straight to bed myself. Crazy crazy kids. I hope tomorrow goes better for you.
Just when you think things have settled out....... silly boys

[~Natalie~]

It does sound like OT since everything else seems to have been ruled out.  I would go for the two naps, and hopefully like Sherry said because he is OT he won't refuse bedtime. 

[hrk]

Did you rule out hunger, and have you had to feed him to sleep during these episodes, still?  Most likely it sounds like napping nonsense.  Could you post your day today?

Hugs for a POOPY day :-(. 

[huntersmummyinoz]

ok will give 2 naps a go and see what happens

jean, milk thing varies, sometimes he takes it, last night he ended up having a little milk downstairs in sippy during dvd as refused his bottle, night before flatly refused bottle. during the last week has varied, some nights takes it, some nights doesnt. havent switched to cows milk yet as he got sick a month ago and then we've had the suspected reflux issues.

yesterday looked like this
630 wake up
700 bottle
800 breaky (actually he has refused his porridge the last 2 mornings, has had other stuff instead but usually always eats this...)
10.45 half lunch plus milk
11.15 attempted nap
12.15 put him in car, asleep 12.25 - 1.40 (1hr15 - this time is normally an ot nap length for hunter)
2.00 half lunch
4.00 snack
5.45 dinner
6.15 teeth, bath, pjs, etc
6.45 bottle (about 1 oz)
7.00 attempted bedtime

he slept thru from 9.30 til 6.45 this morning, not a peep. usually he does loads of OT waking before midnight, but i guess he prob crashed cos he was exhausted...

kirry

[EloysH]

Hey Kirry

Are there any lumps on his gums.. is he teething?  This kind of behaviour always goes hand in hand with teething for us.  Sometimes the pain relief doesn't seem to help especially if the tooth is coming down from the scull, his sinuses seem to get inflamed.

[huntersmummyinoz]

yep, his bottom two molars are definitely on their way, one has a sharp pointy bit in it but not cutting just yet. saw doc this morning, we recently upped reflux meds (last week) but he thinks he would be crankier during the day too not just sleep times if reflux (i beg to differ on that one given previous experience . he checked his ears (as he's been tugging them yesterday and today) but all clear and his chest is clear too despite cough still hanging on more than a month after his cold...

anyways, long story short, doc thinks its teeth, given he is norm a good sleeper. suggests giving calpol (paracetamol) and ibuprofen alternately during the day every 2.5 to 3 hrs. he suspects that by the time i'm giving him meds at night it is only taking the edge off the pain rather than keeping it away so still hurts too much to get comfortable. and if that doesnt work after 24 hrs try medised at night only for a couple of nights (one of the no no drugs for under 2s, paracetamol plus antihystamine) so that quote 'he doesnt get overtired and get into an overtired cycle or it'll take weeks for you to get him to sleep properly again'.

i'd decided to keep up on pain meds after last night anyway, so he had his second dose 30mins before nap. he woke at 645am and i put him down at 11....so far he has slept for 15mins, even if he wakes early it's an improvement on yesterday!!!

fingers and toes crossed for the rest of the day

[EloysH]

oh thats great to hear that you have a reason for all of this.  I was going to say something about dosing during the day too.. if we dose Jarrah up on paracetemol after lunch and then keep it up every 4 hours then we have a smoother afternoon and night.

[~Natalie~]

Yeah I disagree with the doctor about reflux too      James only would show signs when I would try to lay him down.  I think it is good to keep up with the pain meds today, those molars can be horrible.

Fingers crossed that the nap goes well!

[sherry lynn]

Glad to see you lowered the A time a little today. Hopefully that worked and you will get a nice long nap.

I didn't know that when teething is really bad that you have to keep on top of the pain meds to keep the pain away instead of dulling it. I guess I need to get some Tylenol.

[hrk]

he thinks he would be crankier during the day too not just sleep times if reflux (i beg to differ on that one given previous experience .

  I completely agree; nights and naps go "off the hook" as they say.  He can be fine, as positionally he is upright literally running around pretty much nonstop.  Laying down can be a whole different story, if the lower esophageal sphincter hasn't developed to close off the tummy contents.  If it relaxes, then the yucky bubble-up.  Marci says this is the piece that often doesn't completely develop until 18 mo in children.  That is why reflux is prevalent in children :-(

What pops out to me in the routine, is that at your stage on a one nap day with a waking of 6:30 (late for us), Heath would be ready for a nap between 10:45-11:15 (tops.)  I had to move and still have a larger meal at about 10 (so he makes it through nap), and then a larger meal again after between 2/3.  I am thinking ot, too.

We are still doing formula before bed, as I mentioned he was waking early and hungry.  So, I think you will progress when you think he is ready.  If the dr doesn't have an issue (ours didn't), then it's fine.

Another thought is how long before bedtime are you giving the meds?  Also Heath and Hunter are big babies.  I think b/c Heath is big, that I often actually underdose Heath.  I am still doing the 1.6 dose.  I have a sheet, but they don't have his size matching his age.  I really should call the clinic to make sure I am actually doing a large enough dose.

More hugs!

[huntersmummyinoz]

  (ok that'll do or i'll jinx myself )

nap today 2hr35min  so no need for catnap 

bedtime, did 6.50pm, never goes down before 7 so thought i'd try a little earlier. called out for a second and then fast asleep

kept all A time low key, only a few toys out. lots and lots and lots of books. nice walk outside and went on swings at the park.

so i guess it's his teeth? i'd given him paracetamol before nap yesterday too but only 15mins before, today i've made sure he has had it 30mins before and then kept up with it during the day.

jean, i think you're right in that he needed lower A time yesterday as he'd had a crappy bedtime the night before. i just got into the habit that he's usually good for 4.5 hrs, often 4.75 or even 5 these days, oops, i know to wind it back in future! today he had 4hr15 and did that nice long nap.
what meds is heath on? hunter usually has them around 30mins before milk in the morning and evening. mixed info as per usual with reflux in that some pharmacists have said 30 mins before but pedi reckons it's accumulative and can even be given right before food?? since doubling his meds last week he is now on 20mg a day, marci site says 30 to 45mg for his weight/age so i guess we still have room to move if needs be.
the pain meds wouldnt work on reflux pain would it???

still doing the happy dance (just hope i can do it again tomorrow!)
kirry

[hrk]

YEAY Kirry!  It may not be every day that he will do it.  If we have ew, then he couldn't do the one nap, as it would begin too early.  Heath did a short nap about 9:30 and then a long nap at about 12 or so.

Heath is on prevacid; he is taking the 45 mg.  We also do the 30 min before eating :-)  I was thinking for his teething meds, like ibprofin.  Perhaps if there is a pain, the dose may be too low there.  I have been wondering that for Heath, since I haven't changed his dose since he was at the max dose on the chart for 24 lb, lol.  He is now 30.  I know when we were at a walk in clinic once, she said he could have much more???  I didn't trust it, but haven't really followed up with by asking our pedi.  Just another thought for the teething.  Perhaps it isn't an issue for you.

HAPPY DANCE!!!!
Jean :-)

[~Natalie~]

YAY Hunter!  and yay for mommy too !!