UT, OT, or NT? How can you tell the difference?

[Gypsymom]

My LO is 8.5 months. He's never been a good sleeper, but with the help of BW methods, we've got him on a good routine and nights have gotten much better in the last month! He can soothe himself to sleep and uses a lovie. He's been doing better at going back to sleep on his own after NWs, but has hardly ever done this during the day.

So, here's my problem. No matter how dedicated I am (we are home for every single nap!!) I cannot get my LO to take long, restful naps. My goal now is to get 1 hour in the AM and 1.5 hours in the PM. We seemed to be making some progress on this after I searched the boards for answers, which resulted in extending his A time. He goes down for both naps easier now and the morning nap is still mostly an hour. The afternoon nap has been poor though, often 40-50 minutes and I cannot get him to go back to sleep no matter how long he stays in the crib (may be quiet, talk, whimper, eventually frustration cry). Today it was only 25 minutes! I spent the remainder of the time (65 min in his room and finally got him up when it was E time; although I wait for him to cycle back to happy before turning on the lights and picking him up). When I did bring him out to the playroom, he was a bit clingy and then a few minutes later I saw eye-rubbing. Arrghh!

[texasmom]

Can you post his routine (just sleep is all I really need to see)? 

[Gypsymom]

Rats. I knew that folks would need to see the routine and I did write it out the first time, but I got logged out before I finished my message. I guess I forgot to put it in the second time!

7:30am wake, frequently right on the button (I know we are lucky here!)
7:45am BF
9:00am solids
9:45am wind down (asleep before 10). He used to go down closer to nine, same wake time.
11am wake (or a little sooner, this nap is generally close to one hour)
11:45am BF
1:15pm  solids
1:45pm wind down (asleep before 2)
time down for this nap really varies. This is the part that is driving me nuts! 
3:30/45pm BF
5:45pm solids
6:30 bath, etc
7pm: BF
7:30: Asleep for night

Recently he has "proved" he can go the whole night (hurray!) but sometimes I still need to feed him once during the night. I do not nurse him to sleep and he does manage to put himself back to sleep with most night wakings.

[texasmom]

Hello again!     Thanks for the routine. 

Well I am thinking he is getting quite a bit of sleep and doesn't need any more.  I copied this from FAQ's in EASY.   

Here is a general guideline of what you can expect regarding awake time for your lo: (remember some babies get a little more, some a little less. It's just a rough guideline)

8 - 10 months 3 - 4 hours. Some are getting more.
11 - 12 months 3.5 -4.5 hours. Some are getting more if moved early to 1 nap

***Remember these are guidelines, NOT rules, so if you feel that your baby is not yet ready for these A times, please do not force them, as this will cause further problems***

And this from FAQ's in General Sleep:

Keep in mind that the following is an average - some babies need a little more sleep, and some will need less sleep.  You cannot fit a baby into a clock.  A baby's temperament, amongst other things, can influence their sleep requirements, as can milestones, teething etc.  The most important thing is to watch for your baby's tired cues.

Age/milestones             Sleep needed per day             Typical patterns
                                                   

6-8 months                                                            Two naps 1-2 hours each;
More mobility; able to                                                   10-12 hours at night
sit and crawl

9 months old                                                          2 naps of 1.5 hours each;
                                                                                11-12 hours at night





 

So maybe you want to try increasing A time again.  When the nap shortens, you usually try that - usually by 15 min, see what happens, etc.. unless they are OT.  I'd say you have a great sleeper!!  At 8.5 months, mine was just sleeping 13 total hrs a day.    She's on the low end, though. 

Does that help?  I'm happy to answer any other questions. 

Brooke

[Gypsymom]

Thanks for the help, Brooke. I had the read the first FAQ you quote... he gets the 12 hours at night, but I thought I needed to keep trying to extend his naps if they were both less than 1.5 hours. Now that he can and does fall asleep in the crib on his own, do I continue to do PU/PD for the entire nap slot (90-120min)? It sounds like you are suggesting that he's okay, and I can stop trying to convince him to sleep longer during the day?

Yesterday after that super-short pm nap, he was rubbing his eyes mere moments after getting him up! We put our grouchy bear to bed about 30 minutes early last night, and I still couldn't keep him awake for a full feed. I was expecting a rough night, but surprisingly, he had no NWs (still a rare enough event around here to make me very happy). He did wake up today at 7 instead of 7:30, so we put him down for the am nap at 9:40, he slept 90 minutes which is his longest morning nap ever! He didn't seem sleepy enough at the regular pm nap time, so I delayed ~45 minutes. He did go to sleep then (although not without quite a bit of fussing) and probably only slept 15 minutes before he woke up crying. He's now an unhappy camper. He's awfully young, but does this mean he didn't need the second nap!?

[texasmom]

No, I wouldn't  do PU/PD for the nap time.  I think he is sleeping what he needs.

That is a bit confusing about the the short second naps.  I'm not positive, but what I'm thinking is the nap needs to be longer, but he didn't sleep long enough b/c he wasn't tired enough.  So he was so tired later b/c he didn't get enough. 

I'm also wondering if the NW's are caused by him not being tired enough at night. 

Can you show me today in terms of sleep? 

Just...

Wake
Sleep (how long it took to fall asleep and from when to when)
Sleep
Asleep for the night (time and how long it took to fall asleep)

He does still need the second nap.  It just might need tweaking. 

[Gypsymom]

So, I shouldn't force my LO to stay in his crib longer then? When I first got his schedule going and did PU/PD a lot, I was sometimes able to get him to go back to sleep if I kept at it. Now, he never does, so perhaps it as you say, and he's simply not tired.

Thankfully, the NWs seem to be nearly gone. Even a month ago, it was still normal for him to be up 3 x per night.

Sorry for the delay, I had trouble "waiting" for the whole of yesterday's data... and then had no time to post.

4:30am (NW) Feed (he ate a poor supper the night before. Cried for like 20sec when I put him back down. Coo'd to self for 5-10min and then back to sleep
7:40am - I woke him. He usually gets up at 7:30
9:45am - put in crib
10am - asleep
10:20am awake (stayed quiet in crib, eventually squawked to get up)
1:50 - put in crib (rubbed eyes a bit but didn't seem really tired)
2:10pm - asleep
2:25pm (argh!) awake. would not go back to sleep
7:20pm - put in crib
7:25pm - asleep with zero fuss

Today, he woke up at 6 for milk and went right back to sleep (no other wakings in the night). Up for the day at 7:30am
9:47: put in crib
9:55: asleep
10:48 awake and not interested in more sleep
2:15pm put him down late (probably overstimulated due to a luncheon)
2:45pm still awake and mad about it. I let him up.
3:30pm a normal feed but he started falling asleep. I put him in the crib awake after nursing him and he had about a 10 minute catnap, then played quietly for another 10 minutes, then called for me. 

-Shannon

[texasmom]

Shannon,
Just my opinion, but I don't think you should try to force it.  How old was he when you were getting his schedule going?  I think once they learn to sleep on their own, they mostly sleep what they need, unless they get OT, and I don't think he is. 

What did his day look like in terms of sleep when he was taking good naps, and how long ago was that?   

His naps were short the past 2 days.  I'd like to see if we can get him to 1.5 hr naps by extending A time.  What do you think of that?  What do you think of starting out trying a 3 hr A time?  So maybe in bed at 2 hrs 50 min.  It may even need to be longer, but we can try that for a start.  Typically what you will see is that the nap will shorten or they do not fall asleep easily for the nap.  That tells you that you probably need to increase A time.  You usually try 15 min for 3 days and see how it goes...  then increase more if need be.  My LO increased A time by 1 hr in just 2 weeks.  I had no idea what was going on.  Finally figured it out!   

I hope he's not getting OT with those short naps.  How does he seem? 

Hang in there, we'll figure it out!

Brooke

[Gypsymom]

Thank you for your encouraging optimism, B!

I don't think he's too OT yet, but I might be resorting to car travel pretty soon to catch him up a bit!

I'm totally game to try extending his A time further (we've moved it almost half an hour in the last few weeks). The only thing I don't get is how to I keep his feeds at four hours if I do this? Should I be nursing him closer to nap time or what?

We got him on a schedule at about 6 months. His naps have been about 50-60min in the morning and 45-1.5 in the afternoon. We've not been able to achieve those times since before Christmas.

[texasmom]

Oh, I was thinking he WAS taking two 1.5 hr naps.  Ok.  So let's try the 3 hrs and see what happens. 

What I always did with feedings is I was just flexible with them.  I tried to do 4 hrs if I could, but if the nap fell in the middle of a feeding, I'd just feed before I put down.  Or I'd split it, meaning feed some before the nap and some after.  Is he taking solids now?  What I'd do is milk feed upon waking, then bfast an hour later, then milk feed 3 hrs - give or take - after the solids, then solids an hour later, etc...  So 3 solid meals a day.  It helps them sleep through the night too. 

Let me know how the naps go today and how the nights are going too. 

[Gypsymom]

Yowzers, things are really whacked out now!! 

7:20am woke up crying (unusual)
9:45am put in crib (we didn't do 3 hour A time because he almost fell asleep in his porridge!)
10:15am finally asleep (after all those signs, he fought and cried like crazy)
10:30am awake, whimpering and became a cry
1:30pm put in crib by caregiver (rubbed eyes during lunch)
1:35pm asleep already!
1:40pm woke up *screeching* (a very different and unbearable cry. caregiver got him up)
2:00pm finally stopped uneven breathing
2:30pm I came home, he looked so exhausted I decided I'd try to nurse him to sleep
3pm: took one side, never got dozy. Totally rejected (arching) other side - unusual
3:15: caregiver took him for a stroll. I hope he can get a tiny catnap out of that.

Every day this week has been worse than the last. At 8.5months, maybe this is separation anxiety related?? Do we just abandon EASY for the time being to just get him so sleep any which way we can??

[texasmom]

Yes, get him sleep any way you can.  I'm sure he got OT from those short naps.  So he sleeps a VERY short time when OT.  I haven't heard of that.  So I'm thinking if he takes such a short nap, you should try to extend it.  Maybe try for 20 min, and if he doesn't sleep, then get him up.  Do you ever try rocking him to extend? 

I honestly don't know if this is separation anxiety related.  It seems like OT to me.

Since Christmas, how long have his naps been?  What has his days looked like?

[texasmom]

I wanted to add this...  when his naps are so short, keep A time really short. 

[Gypsymom]

He is definitely very OT now. Last night he woke 3 times. I fed him once. He looked tired within about 20 minutes of waking. When you say keep A times short, does that mean that I do the whole thing in a mini-time frame? I was nursing him at 7:30, 11:30, 3:30 and 7 (give or take 15-20min) pretty steadily. If I shorten his A, does this mean I could potentially be putting him down for 3 to 4 naps per day? Does he skip the E then or just nurse for a shorter time?

[texasmom]

I'm so sorry he's OT. 

Try to keep your E times about the same, but if he is possibly going to be sleeping during an E, feed him before the nap.  Do the best you can and don't worry about it not fitting into a perfect EASY.  There are so many who don't fit into a perfect EASY, and it just has to be flexible.  If he doesn't eat much before the nap, you probably want to feed him again when he wakes up. 

There are 2 things you can do to help him get rested.  1)  Keep A times short, watch sleepy cues, and put him down when he's tired, no matter how early.  2)  Keep A times the same as usual but extend the nap when he wakes early from it.  What you would normally do is try the first option first.  If it's not working, then try the second option, but if the nap is short, try for about 20 min to see if you can extend it.  If it's obvious he's not going to sleep, just get him up. 

You might have him take several naps.  That's ok. 

Hugs and hope the day goes ok. 

If you would like to share, it would be helpful to know what his days have looked like since things got wacky for you - you said since Christmas.