Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat

[A pair of Charlies]

Hey Nadene

        . What a horrid horrid day.

A couple of questions...has shh patt worked for you ever (once she's lying down in cot)? What's different about her sleep environment at night - including what might seem like the most obvious things? Swaddled? (I'm sure you put that earlier and it was a yes...) Warm cot? Any white noise? Anything hanging over head or nearby? What's her A time like - does stimulating activities end a good 5 mins before wind-down?

It sounds like she's waking as she tries to move into deep sleep - which you no doubt already worked out!  Off the top of my head, I'd try either slowing (and stopping) either the ssh or the patt a little after you've got her in the cot. - before the fussing starts. It might be that she doesn't like the 2 together for long. Sometimes with DS I would keep my hand on his cheek or somewhere he'd feel warmth and comfort (gradually withdrawing once in the big sleep). Sometimes just my hand on his chest.

For the time being; you're both OT. So there's a choice. You can keep trying as you're doing but know that an OT baby is harder to settle OR you can AP, get her to sleep and with a big sleep under her belt, then try again. I'd also be tempted to try and judge her A times with the aim of having her swaddled and on the way to sleep by the first yawn (not easy I know, took me AGES to clock the tired signs, not his OT signs...and they're all different... ).  Perhaps even keeping the first A particularly restful (no noisy toys, baby gyms) just to experiment IYKWIM.

DS would only sleep on me. At night I had to feed him to sleept...I fed him in bed on his crib mattress, pull over his blankets (that I'd wrapped around me to get the scent & keep warm), then carry him pn his mattress around my bed, place him in his crib, keep my hand on his face til he settlewd back into his deep sleep....all in the dark., terrified he'd wake. During the day, he slept on my chest. I found shh patt and it got him into his bed just as I hit breaking point. I guess I'm trying to say I know the desperate feeling. 

Hugs

Charlotte

[~Alexa~]

Hugs to you hun!! I know how exhausted you must be but hang in there!!

At the beginning, shpat is very very difficult and tiring.  You spend a lot of time leaning over the crib!! WHen I started shpat, it didn't work all of the times and it drove me crazy!! I understand what you mean about feeling like a failure, but believe me, you are not a failure, you are doing a great job!!

I would suggest that you get a 2 day vacation from sleep training.  Do whatever it takes for sleeping your LO (rock her, feed her, whatever) and after these 2 days, come back to sleep training with a fresh mind.  I did this when I was about to lose it, and it really helped me.  I used to cry all day because I couldn't make my DS sleep, so I decided to take a break, and it made me feel better. 

I started shpat when DS was 7 weeks old, then stopped it for about 2 weeks, and then came back to doing it.  It was until my lo turned 3 months when I saw a big difference.  I think it is something developmental.  You help them, but they have to grow!! It is biological!! I guess that what I'm trying to say is that you are going through something very common and normal.  Don't give up!! You'll get there, it is all a matter of time!!

One more thing...MY LO hated the patting on his back, so try experimenting with different things.  My DS likes the patting on his bun, so try different things!! And don't stop shushing as you lay your lo down. 

Let us know how things go
BIg big hugs
Alexa

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi again

Just remembered someone else's post from a few months ago on ssh patt (8 week old baby I think)...anyway, she found that she had to not do the shhh I think. She thought it was too distracting and she got results. Experiment a little and see if something else clicks. There's even a chance that your LO would settle with the shh and patt slowly up a little sooner than most...you never know as they're all different.

I try to look at it like this: if you were trying to get to sleep and someone was trying to help you, how much interference would you like / not like. That's really what we're doing in a more controlled way. I fall asleep if my DH strokes my hair or soothes my arm or face when I'm tired (silly I know), but I'm assured that this is how I was lulled to sleep as a baby when fractious. For a lot of people, someone meddling with their hair would drive them nuts...and get them cross and distracted from sleep and grumpy, rather than easing them off to sleep. Do you see what I mean? Everyones different. So experimenting might throw up some ideas. The fussy may-be like an adult's 'I'm trying to sleep' grumbles.

And remember: your LO won't remember that they had a horrid day yesterday. Not scarred for life. If there's a way that you can all get some rest and time with your boy, then take it! 

[ktaal]

Thanks to all who responded to my initial question.  I was going Baby Wise crazy so I had to take a break from everything baby wise for a while.  I really appreciated the detailed advice but I have come to the conclusion that for some babies it just doesn't work - ours being one of them.  I think perhaps those children who can fit within and EASY schedule and can be sleep trained using sh pat might have eventually ended up with the same routine and sleeping habits regardless.  I know parents who haven't been at all intentional and have babies that sleep and eat like clock work, and others who try without success.   Nadene, I can definitely sympathize with you and can offer no advice other than what many of my friends have given me - "she'll/he'll grow out of it".  I found that all the sleep training was taking away from me enjoying my baby.  For now I am just going to do what works - it's not that bad - and hope that eventually she won't scream the moment we place her in her crib  .  I guess my advice is to all that are reading that haven't found success yet using the strategies found in the Baby Whisperer - don't feel like a failure and stress out like I was starting to do - do what you can to enjoy the blessing you've been given in your child - before time runs away too quickly!
bye for now

[NadeneR]

Thanks for all the wonderful advice that's been given.  I took a break from sleep training during last week ... I was just too exhausted to continue.

My LO has been doing really well and we've both been a lot more relaxed.  She's going down for naps and bedtime a lot easier, and her naps are getting longer and longer again.  I noticed that she needs less intervention than I initially thought ... the longer I do the shpat, the more irritated she becomes.  If I just ssshhh softly for a few minutes and pat her bum lightly while she's in my arms, I can then lay her down, continue very soft shpat for about 2 - 3 minutes, she settles very well.  I sit next to her cot for 10 - 15 minutes, just so she can sense my presence.  I can then leave the room and she then sleeps beautifully.

I'll get to the point where I can lay her down "tired, but awake" to help her fall asleep on her own, but we're not there yet and I'm not too stressed about it.  I'm just enjoying my precious Talia again.

Love to you all!!!!

Nadene

[Mum2Sam]

Hope you don't mind me jumping in but all your comments rang true with me having come on here today after giving up for the day and putting my son in his chair with his paci!!
I have also been doing shs/pat with my 12 week old and am struggling to understand a few things?
You say it isn't a prop and gradually over time you do it less and less - can someone tell me how you know when to start reducing it?
At the moment I am lying on side with hands near mouth (he was/is a paci addict) and patting on back with womb noise machine thing going in cot.  I pat/noise until he is fast asleep and everything has relaxed and then stand over him until 20 mins have passed and then back in again at 45 mins to try and prevent short naps.  I also seem to have one good day one bad day where nothing I do works.  Either way I feel like my entire day consists of feeding, helping to sleep or watching him sleep.  I know this isn;t forever it would be good to get an idea on a timeframe to give me hope!!  AT the moment it feels no different to having to manage the paci ie not independent.

Schedule is around every 3.5 hours feed so for example feed 9am until 9:30 then activity 9:30-10/10:30, wind down 10.30 till 11 sleep 11-12:30.  Is it his schedule maybe?  Sometimes he starts yawning as soon as he has fed but I ignore this??
Arr how can such little people be so frustrating!!

[A pair of Charlies]

Arr how can such little people be so frustrating!!

And then some!

Okay. Let's work through this...

How to reduce the shh patt: I did it quite gradually by just doing a tiny tiny bit less to help him to sleep each time. So give yourself a goal - a week, 2 weeks to being able to put him down awake but sleepy. Then work back from there. Are you going to do less each nap or by the end of each day. So.... if you're shh patting until he's fast asleep, then try to do it until he's just dosed off and try to keep your hand on him to reassure him while he goes through the jumps. If he stirs, just start your shh patt again. And continue like that. Does that make sense? Can explain further if you want?

45 min naps: We had this for a really really long time. At this age it can be developmental but it can also be too short an A time (even 5 mins makes a difference!). So he's tired enough to fall asleep, but not tired enough to sleep past the first sleep cycle. I think of it as the Sunday afternoon sofa snooze: I'm not tired enough to sleep there for hours but tired enough to sleep for a bit (until I had DS...now any sleep is gold!!). So you could try and increase the A a little. Can talk you through how I did that when DS was a similar age if you'd like.

Routine: Could be ready to move up to 4EASY. You'll want to take this gradually...so you can see if he's doing okay and ready for the transition. My DS was happy at 4 EASY and was there bang on 12 weeks...but he couldn't manage the A times so I kept those shorter. And it's okay to do that if it's what your LO needs.

Some links to info that might help:
Naps:
 * Typical Day and Night Sleep: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
 * Teaching Babies (newborns & young infants) to sleep: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85500.0
 * Teaching Babies (3-6m) to sleep & the 45 min nap: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85499.0
 
EASY:
 * 3-4hr EASY Transition in 5 min increments: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=120362.0
 * Ready to increase A time: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0
 * Sample EASY routines (a choice of age groups so you might want to look at 0-3 and 3-6): http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?board=82.0

Just let me know if any of this doesn't make sense. Good luck and let us know how you get on!!
HTH

Charlotte

[Mum2Sam]

Wow - that's really helpful info - I confess I am sneaking away tonight with hubby for a baby free night (I feel sooo guilty) - my mum and dad are over from the UK - we live in Oz now - and they go home next week so we are taking this rare opportunity plus give them some full on grandson time before they go!  I will get into this next week and let you know how we go - thanks for the info and support tho'!!

[Mum2Sam]

OK so we are getting better - he is now (usually) going down and sleeping with only a 1 minute or so shpat or just the noise machine sometimes (yeay).  We are still (really) struggling with 45 min naps though we have just got Zantac from Dr as he has reflux which has recently started to stop him feeding so this may be part of the issue.  He puts himself back to sleep at night no probs it only seems to be the day.
Question - when they stir do you automatically start shpat/hold,etc or do you wait for them to start crying and getting uptight?  Do you keep doing this until they don;t stir at all or just until they stop waking up.  Do you stay watching them full 20 minute sleep process until they don't stir at all anymore or until they just don't wake up?
Will try increasing A time a little - I am confused with cues as he is rubbing eyes, yawning, etc straight after feed most times - as he is refluxy I have to keep him upright for a while after feeding so sit him in his chair - he usually falls asleep for 20-30 mins after each feed then we do activity and then sleep again - not sure if this is the trouble and if I should try and stop this?
So am going to aim for say: 7am-7.30 am feed/7.30-8am sleep, 8-9.30 activity includes around 10-15 mins wind down, 9:30-11am sleep (ideally) - what do you think?
Thanks again for all your help/info!

[A pair of Charlies]

oohhhhhh...tough questions!

1. When they stir...this is really completely up to you. When he goes down, is he asleep before shh patt stops .i.e. does he go to sleep patted and shhed or does this stop just before he drifts off. Should be aiming for him to drift off to sleep without the sp continuning (so he doesn't need it to be able to sleep, IYKWIM). If it was me, I would may-be lay my hand on him very very gently and see if that's enough to resettle him. If it is, I'd be making that more and more gentle until it isn't needed (easy to say, not always so easy to do!). But the hand being laid onto him can also be a disturbance (particularly to a light sleeper) and may bring him out of sleep - and that's so not what you want to do!. So, it's a judgement call for you. You could see if he comes out of his sleep then try and resettle, just in case he can transition through by himself.

2. Do you stay or do you go....again, a personal choice. I usually stayed with him until we got a point where I could lay him down (sleepy) and he would go to sleep without any shh patt.

3. Increasing A & routine: back in the day when DS was all cute and little like yours, his life seemed like feed, sleep, feed, sleep. He was a very slow feeder and it often took up most of his A time, then wind-down was just around the corner and sleep dramas beckoned. Are you still on 3.5 EASY? And do you think he can handle more A time? Off the top of my head, A is around 1hr 20 for this age (??)...so he seems to be doing really well. As you adjust to 4 EASY, the A times don't always increase at the same speed! My LO had really low A times for a long time (still on the low side now) as he just couldn't do the length of A. The first A of the day is usually shorter than average for most babies. I think they're all desparate to get back to bed!! 

Does any of that help? Let me know how you get on!

Charlotte

[NadeneR]

WooooHoooo ...

Well, I'm doing a little victory dance here.  I just got my LO down with shpat for the first time.  Since my last post, I've AP'd quite a lot.  She's been going down for naps, but waking 45min - 1hour later, consitently.  Last night, at the end of my rope, I came onto BW website and did PLENTY of reading ... mostly regarding short naps.  I decided to commit to shpat again and it was pretty easy.  I don't know how long this nap will be, but I'm crossing my fingers for an hour +.  I've also been watching her A time, I extended it a little this morning, figuring that she might not be tired enough to sleep long stretches.  I know she's not OT, because she consistently goes from DF at 10h30 to 05h30, down again at 05h50 and awake at 08h15 in the mornings.

Another proud moment ... she's gone through the night twice in the last week, skipping the 5 / 6 feed and waking between 6 & 07h30 only.  Hooray!!!!

Wow, do I love this website, and all you fabulous moms out there!!!

xxx
Nadene

[A pair of Charlies]

YEYYYYYYYYYYYYYYY!!!!!!       

[NadeneR]

My victory was short-lived.  Another horror day it turned out.

Shpat worked for her morning nap (got 1 hour sleep out of her), as well as her 2nd nap (got 50 mins this time).  The rest of the day was a disaster. She went down with shpat at her 3rd nap.  I stayed with her the full 20 minutes, plus an extra 6 - 7 mins as I normally do, just in case, but she slept exactly 20 minutes after I left the room.  It took another 35 minutes for her to get sleepy, 10 more to go to sleep in my arms and wide awake upon being laid down.  No naps thereafter, not even the 45min catnap, despite even APing like crazy.

Shoo, this is tough.  Is it supposed to go from bad to worse?  I've never had problems with short naps with her, this is all new to me.  On the odd occasion that we've had short naps, I've usually had no trouble getting her back to sleep with a little AP.  Now, nothing seems to work.  I'm able to lay her down before eyes are even properly closed, and shpat till fast asleep.  The trick is to KEEP the little p-nut asleep.

Where to from here?  Help desperately needed!!!

Nadene

[A pair of Charlies]

Hmmmm... short naps suddenly started appearing? Does she seem fairly happy awake afterwards, even if you haven't managed to settle her back down; but tires earlier than normal?

Wondering if she's made an A time jump and is ready for more A than she's currently getting? Just a thought... please don't take my word for it!  Generally, if they start taking short naps (45 mins and sometimes less) but are happy and awake when they wake up (might cry at first if they aren't independent sleepers or don't like to be alone) then an A increase can bring the full restorative naps back.

Somewhere in my posts above there's links to typical day and night sleep, Average A times and sample EASY routines. I find these help guide me through DS's bumps and switches.

Increasing the A isn't always though, so if you do try it, take it carefully and watch out for OT signs?

What do you think?

[NadeneR]

I did check out your links on typical day / night sleep and until a day or two ago, she's spot on there.  As far as A times go, I'm really just working on her tired signs.  Her eyes start dimming during WD already, at which point I tell her that Mommy loves her, give her a soft kiss and lay her down.  I started shpat this morning, but stopped in under a minute (it wasn't even necessary to shpat this morning ... she put herself to sleep, just with my hand on her shoulder as she sleeps on her side).  So MAJOR victory there!!!

We had a brilliant night.  I did the DF at 11h00 and she slept till 07h30.  That's 8.5 hours straight!!!  No complaints there.  I heard her moan once or twice in the early hours of the morning.  So she seems to be able to put herself back to sleep at night, but not during the day.

I'm so conscious of her signs and therefore am pretty sure the short naps are not due to OT, all I can still think of is adjusting the A times.  Up until a few days ago, I wasn't able to get more than an hour out of her after her 1st morning waking.  I extended it to an hour 10min yesterday and an hour 15 mins today.  She went down like a breeze and has been asleep for an hour already (still keeping my fingers crossed for a longer stretch).  The A times during the rest of the day she normally manages an average of an hour 20 -25 mins.  Is that pretty age-appropriate - she'll be 12 weeks tomorrow?

She's still on 3hour EASY.  Is it time to start moving towards 4hour EASY yet?  Her feeds are REALLY short.  If she's on the breast for 10 minutes, it's an achievement.  Even this morning, after more than 8 hours since her last feed, she only fed for around 10 - 12 minutes.  Is that normal?  She doesn't even completely a breast.  That tells me that these short naps are not hunger, and in all probability not a growth spurt.

Just doing a lot of guessing and elimination of possible causes at this stage.