Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat

[sgudza]

This is such a great thread, with so much good info:) I'd rather add a question than start another thread.  My lo is going to be 8 weeks on Monday, and I'm pretty sure he's a grumpy/ touchy baby.  He was a super sleeper until a couple of weeks ago, when he started taking 45 minute naps.  Before then he was falling asleep on his own, and staying asleep.  I would have to wake him for almost every feed. But recently he's unable to fall asleep on his own.  So I started using shh pat. I know at his age he should be able to take up to 1:20 A time, but he's always crying by the hour point, sometimes even at 45 minutes.  So I normally try to calm him down, put him in his crib awake, and shh pat him to sleep.  I've been trying for probably about 4 days now, and he takes quite a while to fall asleep, he wakes and fusses, and then falls asleep again.  But I always get him to the deep sleep point.  This seems really strange because he used to be able to take the jolts on his own, he'd even slightly wake up look around for a few minutes and fall asleep.  And now, before he even opens his eyes he's crying.  Also because he's waking up at the 45min mark.  Last week I was able to extend a couple of his naps with w2s, but now that he's falling asleep with shh pat, he comes out of the sleep cycle crying.  The question I have is: should I be shh patting in the crib for 45 mark, or should I take him out and try to calm him down and put him back.  I tried shh pat this morning until his next feed time and he calmed after maybe 10 min, but never fell back asleep fully. He would close his eyes for 30sec and then wake up and fuss. I guess I'm wondering if it will ever get easier.  He shows some signs of being having reflux, so he sleeps sometimes in his car seat. I'm hoping to take him to the doctor next week.I'm an American who lives in Poland, but I'll be taking DS to the States with me on Tuesday and I'm a little worried that all this hard work will go down the drain, as we'll rarely be home for naps.  Any tips advice would be great! We're on a three hour EASY by the way. 

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Hi ladies,

I agree, this is a great thread with great advice!  In order to keep the info that's been posted alive, this topic will be made into a sticky so that moms using shush-pat can keep communicating with each other. I also changed the name slightly to "Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat".

Please keep using this thread to chat and discuss Shh-Pat with each other and get input from others in the same boat. If you have a new question that you want to open up for responding from the rest of the BW community then please check the FAQs, and start a new topic if you can't find your answers there.

 

[admitchell]

Charlotte, I'm sorry to come back only now but the entire family has been fighting some kind of infection.
So back to your questions. I always did a combined shh-pat. We always start in my arms. I do straggle to lay him down without disturbing him and I also find difficult to continue patting when laying him down. Seems like I don't have enough hands:-) It's impossible to keep him on his side as he arches his back and start fussing really bad. So I keep him on his back and keep shiing while patting his side delicately. We struggle with his arms which are all over the place. If swaddled he gets really upset so I try to hold them rather then swaddle. At his point I cannot pat as I'm busy with his arms but I keep shhing. The entire process always takes up to an hour.
He is on 3hr EASY. I make sure he eats every 2.5 and 3 hrs. Timings would depend on night feeds (usually between 1 - 2am and 4-5am then 7:30/8:00) but the bath and bedtime routine starts always at 19:00, 19:30 bf, he usually has a nap till 8pm (falls asleep during feeding but always wakes up after 20 to 40min) and then it take 1 hr to put him to sleep. Naps continue to be a problem. 20, 40 min max. The only time we can get more out of him is when he sleeps on a bouncer, with a vibration on. During a day he usually falls asleep downstairs, in a pram or on the bouncer and then I take him to his room so dd does not disturb him. If he has issues to fall asleep during a day I take him to his room, make it dark and try to put him to sleep with shh-pat. Usually I end up putting him on the bouncer and rock. I know, I know but I have a 22 month old dd that needs me too.
Agata

[A pair of Charlies]

Don't go beating yourself up!!! I struggle to convince my DS to sleep ... and it's only me and him in the house!!

I'll think on this and come back to you tomorrow, if that's okay? Must be something we can do.

A couple of questions first: how old is DS? Are you acting on tired cues or the clock for day naps? I am wondering whether he is OT or OS so when you are getting him down, he's really really fighting it. Also wondering if the vibration, rock and pram during the day are becoming props.... and is there a winddown for these naps? Or could noise be helping him settle downstairs? All musings.    Are day naps still short? How much total day sleep do you think he's getting?

And any other Mamas out there reading with any ideas, please post them too. 

Charlotte

[~Alexa~]

Hi Agata!! I don't know how old your lo is, but I agree with Charlotte that you could be trying to put him down too late so he is OT, or too early so he is UT and that's why it is taking you soooo long to settle him down! How long are his A times?
Could you post your routine so we can take a look and see if we can help you out tweaking it so he doesn't fight naps?
Do you have a wind down routine? If so, what is it about?
Does your lo have reflux?

Hang in there!! We have all been there!! Just one thought! My lo hated the patting on his back, so I rubbed his back instead, he loved it for a couple of weeks, then he started hating it again, so I patted his bun, and now, all of a sudden, he hates the patting on his bun, so I've started just putting my hand on his chest.  So try different things until you find out what works for your lo.

Hugs,
Alexa

[admitchell]

My ds is now 11 weeks. An example of how our day looks like, starting yesterday:
19:00 - bath
19:20 - bf
20:00 - bedtime
23:00 - df
2:45 - bf (back to sleep)
4:10 - awake trying to poop
4:30 - back to sleep
5:50 - bf
6:20 - back to sleep
8:30 - bf
9:50 - nap, 25 min
10:30 - nap, 10 min
11:20 - bf
11:30 - nap, 2hrs
14:00 - bf
15:00 - nap, 20 min
16:00 - bf
17:30 - nap, 1 hr
18:30 - bf
19:15 - bath
19:40 - bf
20:20 - bedtime, awake after 30 min
21:10 - asleep!

Total day sleep would be between 13 and 15 hrs. Very similar to what his sister was.

Charlotte, I agree that bouncer etc. have become props but until I can figure out how to do shh/pat I have to use something:-) Alexa, yes ds is a refluxer therefore sometimes I have to play with feeding times a bit as he has to take medicine. The wind down routine is not very consistant for his naps unfortunately. He actually gives quite clear cues when he is tired. It is enough to swaddle him (which he started fighting) and he starts drifting off. If not OT goes to sleep really quickly but wakes up soon after.
Thanks for your help ladies!
Agata

[~Alexa~]

Hi Agata!! Sorry I didn't get back to you sooner!

I think some of your lo's A times are too long and some are too short. 
At 3 months, bubs can handle from 1hr 20 min - 1hr 30 min A time.  Remember A time includes all the time bubs are awake. (from the moment they open their eyes till the moment they close them again).  So, if it takes 20 min for your lo to fall asleep, start your wind down routine after 1 hr A time so that he is alseep after 1 hr 20 A. 

So tomorrow, when your lo wakes up, have him up for 1 hr, then start wind down routine (I really recommend you start one for naps: curtains, swaddle, lullaby, shpat), so that he is alseep after 1hr 20min.  If he takes a short nap, then you will have to reduce his next A time to 1 hr 5 min.  Does this make sense?

If you are starting to use shpat, then start wind down routine 30 min before.  At the beginning, you will have to shpat him for a loong time, so count 30 min!

Hope this helps.  Keep me posted
xxx
Alexa

[jess, lukeys_mom]

Just piping in here - my lo was colicky and has reflux. patting him on his back led to more cries. However when I managed to get him right under the top of his diaper, that seemed to be quite soothing for him.  I tried to always keep the same rhythm with the patting. Eventually as he got a little older i could pat lightly anywhere on his body, and it was just a little sleep cue for him.

Also, it seemed that my lo hated swaddling too as he would fight it, and for a while I resisted doing it. But it ended the 10-30 min naps he was having and really helped extend his sleep, so we kept it up and pat/shushed for a while in our arms with the swaddle. Made a big difference.

[~Alexa~]

That's right Jess!! I had the same problem with my lo!! He has reflux too, so patting his back made things worse, so instead I patted his bun, I still do so!! heehee

[MeganVB]

Our DD is 4.5 months old, and we're just starting to teach her to sleep on her own (she used to fall asleep so easily in my arms then stay asleep when we put her in her bed - until about 2 weeks ago and it's been all downhill since).  We started the shh/pat today. Somewhat mixed results and I'm wondering if I'm doing things correctly.  I had DD sleepy but awake when she went into her crib, then she proceeded to really wake up and have a fun time in her crib (today was the first time in her crib - she had been in a bassinet next to our bed before - decided to do everything all at once per some great advice on the props board).  Eventually she tired of the new environment and started fussing/crying.  I shh'd till I was dry and hoarse, and patted her tummy (she did not like the wedge idea to get to her back, though I could be doing it wrong), and I kept her in her crib until the cries were getting desperate.  Once I had her on my shoulder, I shh/patted until she closed her eyes, then I immediately transitioned her to a cradling position (easier to get her into the crib that way - I'm very short), patted her rear until her eyes closed again, then laid her down.  It worked twice (on both the first and second naps of the day).  The first nap only lasted 20 minutes, the second 40 minutes, and no amount of shh'ing/patting both in the crib and holding her would calm her down enough to sleep after she woke up early.  My other problem is she desperately wants to make eye contact with me, so I'm keeping my eyes closed when I shhh close to her ear, but I find no amount of shh'ing/patting IN the crib has been effective yet (no droopy eyes or anything).  I know it's the first day and I'm really not looking for any major progress now, but I'm just curious if I'm doing things properly, and if so, when I can look for even small steps of progess (though I'd count doubling the amount of nap time from the first to second nap progress).  If I'm doing things wrong (which is likely - I'm new to this and braindead), I'd appreciate any and all advice!  Again, I cannot express how thankful I am for everyone's great advice! 

[MeganVB]

If I may add one question... At what point is the LO so OT that one should resort to some AP so the LO gets some sleep during the day??  My DD has slept a total of one hour doind shh/pat today - she wouldn't settle at all for the third nap attempt of the day and she's terribly OT now.  I'm all for commitment, but I don't want to get her so OT that it goes beyond what's reasonable.  Thanks!

[~Alexa~]

Do you have blakc out curtains?? That could work to avoid eye contact. 

I would still try to lay your lo on her side so you can pat her back or her bun.  Is your lo swaddled?
Do you have a wind down routine?

It may be also that you are putting your lo too late to bed so she is OT by the time you start shpat, so it will be harder for her to resettle. 

I wouldn't wait until her eyes are closed to put her in the crib.  This wakes her up and that's why she cries so much.  Because she was asleep (in your arms), and then you put her in the crib, so she wakes up! Try to put her in the crib the first time she closes her eyes, but opens them again!!

She will protest and cry, but ignore that, just keep shing and patting, if it doesn't work, then pick her up, calm her down, and as soon as she is calm, put her down, and shpat her again.

The first days are tiring and will take a long time, but may be after 1 week you will start seeing some progress. One more thing....If she is taking short naps, then you will have to reduce her next A time to avoid OT. 
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.0

You can do some APOP for the last catnap of the day.  It is considered a freebie!!
Alexa

[MeganVB]

She isn't swaddled - no matter how well we swaddled her when she was born, she could wriggle out of it in a second.  We tried keeping her in the crib shing/patting to no avail, then would pick her up once she got really upset, then put her down when she had  calmed down, patting/sh'ing, but it made her even more upset!  I watched the signs for tiredness like a hawk, but by her second nap of the day, she was already there (I certainly shortened her A time by quite a bit based on her cues).  Earlier this week we stopped her paci cold turkey, which has caused many a meltdown since, so I think we've already started with an OT baby.  We just had so many suggestions to lump all of the changes into one time (no paci, shh/pat, move to own room), but perhaps we should span those out a bit for sanity's sake, and so DD can catch up on some sleep.  Or maybe not... I just don't know what the right thing to do is!

[~Alexa~]

If she is OT and was a paci addict, then I would start wind down routine even earlier.  I would start it after 1hr 15 A time so that your lo is alseep after 1 hr 45 min. 
Your lo may be already OT when you put her down.  That's why it is so difficult for her to fall asleep.
If she takes a short nap, then start wind down routine after 1 hr A time so she is asleep after 1.5 hr.

[A pair of Charlies]

Hi Sgudza

Just realised that I missed your post for advice before.

How are things now? My initial thoughts are whether your EASY may need a tweak as it sounded like he was managing sleep pretty well before. May be in increase in A time needed to get a longer nap initially, but following 45 min naps the A time needs to reduce a little as otherwise they are doing too much A on too little S, IYKWIM.

Also, could anything else be distrubing his smooth transition between cycles: a little too light in the room, early teething etc?

What do you think?

Charlotte