Support Thread for Understanding Shh Pat

[Giorgina]

Sydney, about your sleep positioners - can you slide them closer together so that her little body is sandwiched between them and is forced to be less flat?  The ones I bought had velcro so you could adjust the width.

I am new to shushpat but here is what I am learning about my 7 wo Touchy/Textbook baby's sleep (might be useful for other Touchy babies so I'll post it:
1) I do not make eye contact with her as it encourages her to stay awake
2) I do not put music on, it becomes too overstimulating when combined with shushpat. 
3) her constant wriggling while in my arms is because she is tired.  I just keep holding her until I see her eyes start to droop
4) I don't pat too fast and sometimes no patting at all - I pat for a few minutes and see how she responds to it. If I feel it is overstimulating her I stop.  If I do pat, she prefers her butt rather than her back.
5) If I lay her down in her crib and she is trying to break free from her swaddle like a madperson, she is not ready for the crib (could be OT or not tired enough), I just pick her up and hold her until she settles and eyes become droopy etc.
6) Sometimes, my presence disturbs her so I will place my hand on her chest and move so she cannot see me.  Her bassinet/crib is right next to my bed so I lay on my bed with my arm outstretched into her bassinet.  I have fallen asleep in that position!  I wake up a half hour later when she starts to stir so I apply a little pressure.
7) I don't rush in right away when I hear her waking at the 40 minute mark as she will often settle herself down and go back to sleep.  I wait for the all out cry.
Shushing loudly upsets her more, I just shush at a normal voice and lower my voice as she starts to settle.

That's all for now.  I still have lots more to learn about her.  Touchy babies are just so....touchy!  My DS was a textbook baby - so much easier!

Also question on the length of sleep - does this hold true for babies (I remember this from sleep training my son):
20 minute sleep = doesn't know how to get herself into next round of sleep?
30 minute sleep = OT baby?
45 minute sleep = undertired?

Thanks so much

[~Alexa~]

Also question on the length of sleep - does this hold true for babies (I remember this from sleep training my son):
20 minute sleep = doesn't know how to get herself into next round of sleep?
30 minute sleep = OT baby?
45 minute sleep = undertired?

Yup!! That's the rule of thumb!

[A pair of Charlies]

Pretty much how it goes ! But not always... so watch out for times when 30mins can mean that they just aren't tired enough to even get to 45 mins. Or when 45min means that they can't get into the next cycle because they don't know how / as with 30mins. Or when 50 mins /m 1hr is a way way OT sign.

And then there's teething!! 

[Don]

Hi Charlotte,

I have posted here couple of times and Alexa have been helping me with my questions.
I have a beautiful 12 wo little boy who I am trying to sleep train since his 7 weeks.
We have made some progress, but I feel we kind of gut stuck on one level.

So the morning nap is easy as pie he goes down no problem. Little fussing and he is off to sleep. I just sh/pat him for couple of minutes after he closed his eyes and after I just put my hands on him and he is off to sleep. Now the second nap is a little more cryish about 10 minutes until he closes his eyes, but naps ususally last 36-40 minutes and there is no way I can make him sleep longer. And this is where our day goes to.....off track. So I take him downstairs and feed him and take him upstairs sooner since he had a short nap. But for the third nap shpat wont work, just crying. I can calm him down at the beginning but it gets worst as I try to calm him. So I give up after 15 minutes bc I dont see the point torturing him as I know he can do so much better. So the third nap he sleeps on my chest and this is another 1.5 nap but on me ( at least I get to sleep as well and smell his little head :-))). And then he has a catnap before bed.

For bedtime we bath him and then I feed him and then wind down and shpat for 15 minutes and there is no way I can make him sleep that way so after comes rocking him to sleep.

He can handle 1.5 hour A time from opening till clsoing his eyes. I try to stick with it, but I guess by the time the evening is here he just cant relax enough bc he is tired. And our day start usually at 7 and 7: 30-40 when he closes his eyes in the evening.
I just dont know how I can make him sleep with shpat in the evening.

And he just started sleeping through the night two nights ago. So this morning I went into his bedroom when he started stirring at 5 am and put my hand on him and sat there for more than an hour and he slept until 7. I had to wake him. So he slept from 11.20 till the morning with a little bit of help from me.

Do you have any suggestions that could help with shpat. I do the winddown and start to shpat him while sitting.

He is mostly and angel baby but when it comes to sleeping he defiently something else.

BTW I read your other post about your GW teaching your little boy sleep on his own. I think you did an awsome job!!!!!! I wish I could be such a good mommy.

Anyway please post any suggestions when you get the chance.

Thanks,
Don

[Catzsz]

Your a brilliant mommy!
Just wondering, we had similar with ours, have you tried shortening his A time as the day goes on? They just get more and more tired and OT as the day goes on, OS is a bugger. Keep the E on track but follow his cues for sleep. Once he gets better at sleeping you can then work on getting easy to look more like easy.
Second nap, you could try w2s? We had some success in that when we did w2s we would just pat the full twenty mins then we'd get a whole nap out of him. Ap the third nap and/or the catnap if no luck getting him to settle?
Once we got to 4+ months we switched to a 4 hr easy, stopped AP and gradually got past the 45 min nap monster and havent looked back. For Alexa's help in helping me zero down our problems have some more Hobnobs that bird!

[A pair of Charlies]

Sounds like you are doing a fantastic job already!!!

Can you post your typical EASY for me? Wondering if it might be a simple A time tweak (increase or decrease). And, if you're ready, I think you could start doing less shh patt to get your LO to sleep, starting with that first nap. What I mean is, if LO's going down really easily and really well for the first nap, use that as the opportunity to just do a little less at putting them to sleep so they do a little more themselves, so move your hand away a little earlier or hold it there really lightly... do you know what I mean?

Alexa's not online for a while so if you can post your EASY I can work on this with you, if you'd like?

Charlotte

[Giorgina]

Hello,
I am able to get DD down in her crib before she falls asleep (droopy eyes) thanks to shushing - no patting for us.  And for that I am grateful.  I'd like to take it one step further and get her to be able to fall asleep completely on her own.  How do I do that?  Currently if I put her down while awake she'll just cry.  It's not an "I'm settling myself" cry, it's a complaining cry.  Do I just try to shush her in the crib til she falls asleep?

[Don]

Hi Charlotte,

thank you for the great tip to use the first nap to try less and less shpat and holding. I will start to do that even more. What I usually do is once close his eyes and relaxed than I lower the shushing and just keep patting but lighter and stop shushing after like 3 minutes and stop patting around 6-7 minutes and I just have my hand on him until 10-12 minutes. But gradually I will do less and less.

It was interesting today about the second nap. He was yawning at wind down, so I thought he ill go down nicely but never happened, couple of times he closed his eyes but could not keep them close and therefore at the and he started crying stronger and for now I know that cry is hopeless and I just rocked him to sleep.

I will post one of my days, but since I stopped writing down what is happening I cant post it, bc my brain is not able remember the times even about yesterday. So I will do that on monday and hopefully we can figure out what is happening.

Once last week I could make him sleep for the 3 naps with shpat and the first 2 was nice and long ( 1.5 hour each) and the third was short and the evening I just could not make him sleep with shpat. Anyway I will post E.A.S.Y.

Catzsz,

thank you for the tip. I will try to do that. My goal is defiently to stop all the APs as soon as possible, but for now I just want him to have good sleeps.
Was your Lo doing the same thing? Because I may have some hope that one day he will go down with shpat for all his nap times and most importantly for bedtime.

Thanks,

Don

[Don]

Hi Charotte,

here is my messy routine that was yesterday.

A 6:17 wake up.
E 7:00 bf
S 8:00 sleep ( I did at 7:45 the wind down and he went down pretty quick.  One he closed his eyes I sh-id for like three minutes and pat-it for another 5 and took my hand off at 7 minutes and let him do the rst on his own. He was not jolting that many times)

A 9:45 I had to wake him
E 10:00 feed
A until 11:00
S 11:38-12:09 ( I started the wind down at 11 he was yawning during the wind down. I could make him close his eyes couple of times but he would not stay like that so at 11:30 I put him on me and let him fall a sleep by this time he was crying......)
But this ended up a very short sleep.
E 12:30 I had to feed him earlier bc I wanted to take him upstairs ealrier for a the third nap.
S 1:15 2:50 ( I did the wind down 1:00 and he was yawning and slept well I did not even had to put my hand on him when he was going from one cycle to the other at 30-40 minutes mark but I did pat him a little longer just to make sure he goes to sleep)

A 2:50- 3:15
E 3:15
A until 4
S 4:30-5:15 ( did not go down with shpat I did the wind down at 4:07 he was yawning but could not make him sleep with shpat)

A 5:15- 6:15
E 6:15
A bath and a top up feed ( he was stilll smiling druing the massage)
S 7:30 I knew that he was OT so I did not even try shapt just rocked him to sleep.

I know it looks really messy. I just dont know why does not go to sleep after yawning at wind down. That is a good sign that he does that isn'it.

And he starts waking up a little before dream feed around 10:40 pm and I thought he started sleeping through the night but he woke up at aorund 2:30 and last night as well. Could he be hungry??? I fed him anyway bc I dont know how to make him sleep.

I really would like to stop all the Ap as soon as possible bc he is getting really used to them I guess and dont want to make his life harder.

Thank you for reading through my lonmg post

[Don]

Hi Charlotte

I thought I post another day that was yesterday, just so get a better picture.

E 7:00
A
S 8:30 - 10:00 ( with shpat)
E 10:00
A
S 12:30  ( with shpat)he woke up the 30 min mark so I put him on me and slept longer.
E 1:00
A
S  (with shpat)I started the wind down at 2:20  and he started sleeping at 2:27 and for like a min and woke back up and was looking around for like 10 min and then started sleeping again 2:42 and woke and finally slept from 2:50 and woke up 3:10 and I put him on me again and slept till 4:20
E 4:30
A
S 5:40 - 6:05 catnap
A 6:20 bath and so on
E 6:40
S started wind down at 7:10 and trying shpat for 40 min but just crying so at the and he fell a sleep on me.

He slept through the night from 11:20 - 7 in the morning, yesterday.
But this morning he woke at 5:10 and I gave him feed but he did not go down after just smiled at me. So I took him to bed with me and he was up for a little while and slept back with a help of bf-ing. I am not sure what to do with the early starts bc, I dont want to bring bed time earlier I would like to keep it at 7:30 -ish. I dont want to bring him to bed with me, bc he will get used to it and it is going to be hard on him to break. I dont want him to suffer more.... IYKWIM. I just feel I am so bad at this.....

Anyway looking forward to read your opinion,
Don

[Manueli]

Hi there, I have been trying shh/pat for a while now (always on and off) with my 8wks old and I have a couple of questions.

First of all, I don't seem to be able to catch his sleep window. I try so hard to look for tired signs but most of the times he shows them right after waking up. Do I put him down right away again? That would just rob him of all his A time.

So I keep him awake for around 1 hour (sometimes even only 30 min since he takes short 45 min naps as well), but often he wriggles and fights and cries for pretty long time in my arms. S/p doesn't stop that, I have to rock him. He also doesn't like being swaddled, so his winddown never really gets him calm since he starts crying as soon as I swaddle him. But if I don't swaddle him his arms will wake him up way too early. I just don't have the time to always sit there and hold them through all the sleep cycles. In the morning I sleep with him in one bed and therefore can hold his arms and he sleeps for 2 hours.

After I finally calmed him down in my arms and he closes his eyes I try to put him down and sh/pat, which sometimes works and sometimes not. I am just gonna keep trying and hopefully get better in reading his tired signs. But my real question is, how do I know if he is asleep or not? He wiggles and sometimes his head jolts, is he asleep afterwards? He keeps wiggling, even in his crib. Sometimes he opens his eyes after I put him down but closes them when I shush, does that mean he is still fairly awake or is he sleeping already? I am just trying to see how long I need to calm him down in my arms without getting him to the sleep stage, since I think he is usually OT. Does he has to learn to calm down in his crib eventually, even though he is OT? He just doesn't seem ready for that yet, it usually just gets him more and more wired up and I end up trying for over an hour.

Although, he even has trouble calming down at his first morning nap. How do I know if he is UT or could he be OT from not sleeping through the night?

Thanks for the help. I love this thread, I learned so much. And it amazes me of how similar so many problems are.

[Manueli]

Hi again, I had a night to think about some of my problems and have some more questions now. I hope this isn't too much, I am just so confused.

First of I want to clarify my question about when you know when the baby sleeps. Basically I am asking if eyes closed = asleep.

So this morning I tried adjusting my A time to get him easily to bed at his first nap. Well I thought maybe he is usually OT and is therefore fighting and crying so I try winddown after 30 min which results in crying baby. I go back out and try at 45 min, not much better. I try again by 1 h and now my husband took over since I can't take the crying right now. I always think I am forcing him to sleep. As soon as I enter the room and draw the blinds he starts crying, seems like he knows what's gonna happen. Why is he fighting sleep so much? He even fights at night, even though he doesn't cry as much.
I just find it hard to sleep train when he is so upset, he never goes through the 3 stages and I never see his stare. And I am getting frustrated cause I can't read him. This morning he showed his first yawn 15 min after awakening, he can't possibly be tired again, or?

I also have a night time issue: Last night he woke at 2.30 and I tried sh/pat but it seemed to work for 30 min (he was really restless in his sleep) and then suddenly he became more restless and started crying so I had to walk around with him again. This happened again at his next waking, only that I did sh/pat for 45 min and then he woke up. What is going on? Is he not able to go to the next sleep cycle? And why does he have such a restless sleep? It happened before and I had to sh/pat for up to 2 h (I only sh and sometimes pat when he moves).

Again, sorry for all the questions. I just would love to know what's going on so I can understand this whole situation better.

Manuela

[A pair of Charlies]

Okay. Let's see,

Firstly, Don: are you okay now, all sorted and sshh patt doing what you need? If not, would you post your current EASY and I can take a look? Not sure how, but I didn't see the previous posts on this thread before the site went down - so so sorry.   

Manueli: It does get better, promise. And you're not asking too much. I'm online now for a few mins but will have more time tomorrow lunchtime (UK time) so if you could post me your EASY that would be a big help. And also, would you be able to walk me through what you currently do. ie. playing and then take babe straight to the bedroom? nappy change before curtains drawn? is it a really dark room? is it a held baby all day when awake or a happy lying in bed or on the floor playing little soul? any other children?

Just helps me get a clearer picture so we can try and see if there's any suggestions I can make.

But remember; it is really tough. Not all babes are sleeping really well early on and that makes it even more tiring on the Mamas, and makes it really hard to think straight! My boy didn't sleep through the night for a long long time and I was amazed at how much clearer my mind was once he was consistently sleeping well - without needing me. Makes a massive difference! So ask away!! 

Charlotte

[Don]

Thanks Charlotte,

we are done with shpat, Lo started sucking the thumb and that is how he goes to sleep or even without, just soothe himself to sleep. So that is a huge improvement for us. Just trying to figure out A times with Lo and as you know the nighttime as well and feeding.

Lets hope for the best.

Don

[Manueli]

EASY is all over the place with us cause I experiment a lot with his A times and he also sleeps very differently everytime (45 min to 3 h, I know the BW said not to let them sleep 3h but I think he needs them and always hope it helps from preventing OT to accumulate throughout the day). But here is my EASY from yesterday:

E: 8.15
S: 9.45 - 10.45
E: 11
S: 11.45 - 3 (I shushed him through the 45 min part but ended up having to pick him up cause he woke from the phone, he slept 2h afterwards)
E: 3 and 4 (only snacked at 3, was hungry by 4 again)
S: 5.30 - 7.30 (we were at a BBQ in the park so I had him in the carrier)
E: 7.30
S: 9.15 and then woke several times during the night

We got no other kids (brand new parents, so many questions... ) and he doesn't mind lying by himself in the bed or anywhere else. He is a big looker and just watches the world or people. We usually play a bit or go for a walk outside and when he starts fussing I go in the room. It's quite dark but not completely, I don't really like completely dark rooms during the day (gets me kinda depressed) and everytime I made it pretty dark it wasn't easier to put him down. Then I swaddle him (thats when the crying starts), put the TV on static and walk him through the room. If he is really upset I spin really fast cause oddly enough it calms him and puts him to sleep sometimes. Only I get really dizzy...

I think he actually fights less (still cries) when I keep him up longer, even after he started fussing, but I have to observe that a bit more.

I am still confused if he is drowsy but awake or asleep when I put him down. This afternoon he had his eyes closed but yawned twice and opened his eyes for a second while being in the crib (now I know that they also open their eyes while asleep). He didn't seem asleep to me but I am not sure. He gets this sleepy gaze very rarely and only when we don't swaddle him.

Thanks so much for the help.