Author Topic: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep  (Read 2047 times)

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Offline IrinaSh

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Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« on: January 28, 2009, 22:30:46 pm »
My 8 mo dd used to be an awesome sleeper... well, not anymore. Now that she is figuring out her mobility and rolling over and sitting up etc she just can't settle down for her naps! She starts showing signs of fatigue after being awake for about 2 hrs (she still takes 3 1-hr naps/day) - rubbing eyes, yawning etc. I put her down, she does the staring thing etc, but then 10-15 minutes later I start hearing her giggling and babbling and that's it - sometimes it takes her up to an hour to settle down and fall asleep, by that time she is so OT that she just can't, so I end up picking her up and laying down with her, holding her very tightly so that she wouldn't wiggle around. she falls asleep in my arms and we take a good 1 hr nap. I just can't continue to do this anymore! I have some other stuff to do besides holding her all the time!
She is getting plenty of time to practice her new skills, she usually sleeps with the paci and sometimes I have to swaddle her arms because otherwise she just keeps playing with her paci, but that hasn't been working very well as she learned how to unswaddle. Any other techniques (PU/PD, shh, pat, even me simply walking into the room) are too stimulating for her. I really don't want to become her sleep prop and I just don't know what to do! Is she just UT when I put her down? But she looks so tired! Help!!!!!



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Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #1 on: January 28, 2009, 23:51:21 pm »
Hi

Just a quick question: When she sits up etc, she can lie back down by herself? Is it light enough for her to feel okay doing this?
Gotta scoot...... will pick up on this again later.  ;)

Charlotte

Offline IrinaSh

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2009, 00:04:26 am »
No, she can't lay back down, I'm trying to teach her, but she is not getting it... and it's not just sitting up - it's everything: messing with the binky, pushing up with her arms when she is on her tummy, you name it - anything that can keep her from resting her head and closing her eyes...
I'm really scared because it makes me feel so frustrated and helpless and even mad! I spend 60% of my day trying to get her to sleep!!! Something is very wrong here.



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Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2009, 11:27:55 am »
Don't feel bad mate. It is SOOOOO FRUSTRATING!!! I know, been there, thumped pillows in another room in an attempt to return all smiley and positive.

I wonder if it might be an A time issue - that's she not tired enough to sleep.

It is going to sound nuts....but the tired signs and boredom signs can overlap and seem identical. Sometimes the tired signs are there, because they are tired, just not tired enough to go to sleep and then they see something interesting and they're off again. It might be worth looking at increasing your A times slightly to see if it helps. I'd try it over 3 days to see what happens.

The FAQ board might have some good information on there for you and on the EASY board there's sample routines and birthclubs which are great for hearing about what other babies the same age are up to (sometimes there's a trend in naughty naps etc). Here's a couple of links that might help:
 Typical day and night sleep: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85134.0
 Average A times: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=64158.msg476652#msg476652
 Sample EASY routines: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=10386.0
 Birth clubs 7 - 9 months: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=139034.0
 
HTH

Charlotte

Offline IrinaSh

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2009, 15:08:53 pm »
Charlotte, thank you so much for encouragement! I was wondering myself if she just wasn't tired enough - age-wise she should be totally ready to extend her A time and drop at least one of her naps - and I really suspect that's what all the trouble is about... Good point about boredom signs - I watched her closer this am and I think you are right - she plays with one toy, then drops it and starts rubbing her eyes, I must admit she looked more bored then tired at that moment!!!
I will try to experiment with extending her A time tomorrow (have to go to work today). But what i'm still not getting is: why can't she just play in her crib for a bit until she does get tired and then peacefully drift off, why wearing yourself out to the point of total exhaustion??? And why is she acting as if she is planning to sleep once in the crib (or do they just really try but can't because they are not tired enough?)
Charlie is just adorable!



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Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2009, 16:08:03 pm »
 ;D

I think they set out with good intentions, believe that they are shattered and think they are going to fall asleep. I don't think my DS ever believes he's bored until he finds himself in the garden and then it's  'ooohhhhhh...gurgle gurgle'. And then something interests them, like the change of scene (the cot, the bedroom) and it's suddenly quite interesting.

Charles is spirited so convincing him it's time to sleep is never easy at the best of times, let alone when he's got to bed and is on a second wind.

Increasing the As has been tricky for us. I do it really gradually over 3 days. I usually increase the first A by 5 mins and see how the nap goes. If it goes well and no OT issues, then I increase by another 5 mins on the next nap...and so on until the total increase by the end of the day is 15mins. If the first nap doesn't go well or shattered early in the next A, I stop increasing that day (so just the initial 5min increase) and add another 5 mins the next day. Depends on the LO how the increases go. For lots of babies a straight 15 min increase on day 1 does the job!

Try upping the A times if you can, and then hopefully the longer naps will mean that last nap drops off. Then you'll get a nice long A before bed which will, hopefully, get a good night's sleep for all of you.  :o

Offline IrinaSh

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2009, 16:29:25 pm »
I think I'm more lost then when I started... Yesterday my dh stayed home with dd, it just happened that her A time got extended to 3 hrs (well, it kind of was 3 hrs because i would put her down after 2 hrs and then it usually took her an hour to fall asleep, but yesterday she was actually out and about for 3 hrs. So we ended up with 2 long naps (1.5 h and 2 h) and very late bedtime (she just couldn't settle down!) and several NWs.. oh and did I mention EW at 6 when she got her bottle, took half of it and slept for another 2 hrs? Then she stayed awake for 2 hrs and started crying and whining and her eyes turned red and she was miserable - I knew it wasn't just her being bored. I put her down and it's been 50 minutes of crying and crawling around the crib and sitting up and actually laying back down and rolling and tossing and messing with paci and more crying... and the poor thing has those red sleepy eyes and that really tired and sleepy look on her face and it's not that she is interested in anything in particular and wants to play - she just can't slow down! She lays down for a second then immediately pushes herself up again, drops her head and immediately pulls it up... What am I doing wrong? 
I will not survive another night with OT baby! And my Dh is leaving for 2 wks next week and I'm freaking out about having to do it all by myself.
Now, I don't quite grasp the concept of extending A time by 5 minutes: do you wait for 5 more min after they start giving you cues or it has to be very rigid schedule by the clock? We were always on schedule but it's always been give/take 15-25 minutes...

Charlotte, I so appreciate your support!!! You are awesome!



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Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #7 on: January 30, 2009, 21:48:07 pm »
 :'(

Okay.

Sounds super OT to me so if it were me, I'd AP to get her to sleep. Sit next to her bed, arm around her, stroke head ...whatever it takes. Try where possible to get the naps at the times where you had them before, if poss, likewise the eat. The A time - cut down so she gets some big naps in to catch up on some day sleep. A good, clear bedtime and then hope for the best. Oh, and if it were me, I'd try some pain meds too...just in case. That may mean I'm a bad Mama though!

Increasing A times. I do it in 5 mins jumps, or more if he seems like he can take it. So, on day 1, during the first A we do everything as normal right up until 5 mins or so before wind-down (depends on how active the A has been; if it's a really running around frenzy then earlier). Then I 'cool' off the activity a little (before the wind-down would usually start). We look out the window a bit or I try and get him to watch something quiet with me, look at something in the house...quiet stuff. This only lasts a few mins or if I'm increasing by 10 or 15 mins, then this cool down will last at least 5 mins, usually with a walk around the garden.

Anyway, digressing. So I extend the A time a little by cooling off before the wind-down then I stretch out that wind-down too. So it's all quiet and calm, just seems like everything is a bit slower. So we go upstairs, dilly daddle along the way looking at things (all unexciting but interesting), calm quiet gentle chatter. Then it's nappy change, put on sleeping bag, close curtains saying goodbye to the sky, put on music and into bed (usually pulling his eyes out by now). If I still want to stretch the A, I eek out these bits of the wind-down by looking out of the window, a slow dance before I lie down etc.

Then, if he has a good nap and seems refreshed when he wakes, I do the same at the next A. I only ever increase a total of 15 mins per day...I'm too scared of OT. If when he wakes he's had a rubbish nap (short) or seems really tired or distressed, then I keep the normal A time or reduce it by 5 mins or so for the rest of the day.

It's all a bit of experimentation really. I just make sure I have 3 clear days of no visits, groups, outings etc so I can keep a close eye on what is happening and react quickly.

But you'll have to get her back on track and over the OT before you start increasing....I can't be awesome....I got you an OT baby!!  :(

Let me know how you get on and see if we can get this sorted for you.

Charlotte

Offline IrinaSh

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #8 on: February 01, 2009, 04:26:40 am »
Charlotte, you ARE awesome and it wasn't you, who got me an OT baby! She did it to herself.
Thanks for explaining the A stretching routine. It was good to know, though we never did any proper wind-down. My baby is an Angel/Textbook, so she was always winding down while in her crib with binky and swaddle. Those were her sleeping cues.
Well, things are getting a bit better. I now see very clearly that she just transitioned from 3 naps to 2 and did it in a horrible jump. She also had quite a bit of developmental leap, learning to sit up, pull herself up in the crib, new sounds, crawling a  bit... She was miserable for a few days and I couldn't do much to help her, but she seems to be getting her new routine down. She is tolerating 3 hrs of A time (well, 2hrs A+ 45 min of crib gymnastics +15 of actively falling asleep) pretty well, she goes down for the night much better and yesterday she only woke up 4 times from 7pm to 10 pm (Bedtime was a bit early - at 6.20pm)  and then woke up once at 4, got 3 oz and slept until 7.30. Today she again had only 2 1-1.5 hr naps, went down for the night at 7 and has been sound asleep since then (for 3 hrs now). I'm so relieved to know that it's not that I'm doing something wrong, but more growth/development spurt. She still acts tired and sleepy at the end of her 2 hr  time, but then spends about an hour "exercising" in the crib - and I'm more OK with it.
How do you teach them to lay back down once they sit up? Also, I still have to go in sometimes and swaddle her hands, because she just wouldn't stop pulling her paci in and out. how do children normally fall asleep without the swaddle??? I can't even imagine it!
Thanks again for your support and walking through all this with me!




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Offline deb

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #9 on: February 01, 2009, 04:38:49 am »
Might she be teething on top of it all? Nothing like a nagging mouth pain to keep one from dropping off!

Offline IrinaSh

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #10 on: February 01, 2009, 04:44:55 am »
I don't think so. She has 2 bottom teeth out and I see no signs of the top ones coming any time soon (no red, swollen gums, she is not chewing on anything etc). When she is in the crib she is very happy - almost too happy for a child who needs to be sleeping at that time!



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Offline deb

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #11 on: February 01, 2009, 13:18:49 pm »
Well, for a while you might need to just wait it out. New skills are too compelling for little ones to sleep through, but eventually they lose their novelty - till the next new skill!!!!

Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #12 on: February 01, 2009, 16:15:12 pm »
Okay... let's see if there's anything I can help you with.

Yep, I'd agree that developmental changes can make the sleep wonky. Not just the practising and that they can't turn off their desire to try it again and again and again. But the other developments we don't see...what they're thinking and how they're thinking; their understanding and making sense of the world around them. There's a book called the Wonder Weeks which details fussy periods a child is likely to have these cognitive (?  ???) developments and our DS is on the mark for these and often becomes a bit of a 'mare!!!

On the sitting, standing thing. Spend as much of the A time you can practising this. Pulling up and down on sofas etc. But help so that when she gets up, she learns how to get back down really safely so it becomes 'second nature'. Takes a while. Giving her plenty of practice in this way should also help exhaust her a little of the new skills. As soon as Charles could pull up and coast, I let him do it all day long. When he got his trolley with bricks for Christmas, I let him go for it until his little legs were so tired he couldn't do more. This worked best at the last A time of the day before his bath - helped tire him for the night.

Practice the skill with her in her cot too if possible. I would 'walk' DS's hands down the right place to help him understand how to get down. Lots of Mothers do fine with just laying them back down repeatedly until the LO gets the message. For us, we tried this for months with no positive effect; if anything it made him more angry, more upset and battle sleep more. We might just be a random case though!  ::)

So, we tried something else and it worked! So, first of all (my DS wasn't much of an independent sleeper) I laid down next to his cot on the floor and pretended to be going to sleep: hands together under cheek, eyes closed. I would lay him down the first time when I put him in bed, would stroke his head a few times, say our key phrase and then lay down. He'd pop up. I'd ignore him as long as poss (5 mins if that!). Then I'd pat his mattress where his head should be, wiggle his lovie to get his attention and say 'lie down'. I'd keep it calm, soft, quiet, relaxed but no nonsense. It took a while for him to get it - that it was his choice to lie down. I would lay him down when he was really upset, but I would hold back from doing the jack-in-the-box thing as much as possible.

We did gradual withdrawl a week or so later, and this involved my not lying on the floor, but more of the patting, lie down thing.

For us, DS likes to control his environment and does not take well to being pushed into doing something he doesn't want to do. So laying him down when he wants to stand for us just ended in a long, screaming frustrating fight. He much prefers to lie down under his own steam.

Hope that helps. DH is nagging me to get to the shops (I have an olive addiction at the mo and am outta the good stuff.... ;D). Let us know how you get on: lots of heads are better than 1!!!

And hugs for any troublesome days and nights  :-*

Charlotte

Offline IrinaSh

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #13 on: February 03, 2009, 21:09:44 pm »
Sorry for disappearing for awhile - life got super busy: working plus DH is leaving soon..
Well, things seem to settle down a bit. We are down to 2 x 1.5-1 hr naps and are able to stay awake for almost 3 hrs now. I can see clearly that she was just transitioning in her sleep. She is back to going to bed at 7 pm for the night and sleeps pretty well at night (again, back to normal). She figured out the whole laying down from sitting without my help (though sometimes she is sitting and is so tired that she just nods, leans forward and then kind of slumps to the side and falls asleep this way! so cute!). I also think she is out of her OT cycle and wakes up refreshed from her naps (most of the times). I have to say that being busy actually helps to deal with this kind of things coz you just don't have time to hover over them and let them figure it out on their own! Plus, this experience just confirmed my belief that most things that take place with your baby (especially some annoying ones) are just a phase that shall pass...
Thanks for recommending that book, I will look it up. I liked the description, sounds like a very helpful thing.
And, charlotte, thank you for the hugs - they were felt and appreciated!!! It helps to know that your child is not the only one and that somebody walks through this with you. Thanks!!!

Irina



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Offline A pair of Charlies

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Re: Just don't know what to do with 8 mo - trouble falling asleep
« Reply #14 on: February 03, 2009, 22:03:51 pm »
YEY Irina!!!!!! ;D  ;D  ;D

Well done you! Hope you have been doing one mighty big happy dance. Great naps, good nights....fantastic!  :-*