Author Topic: help! my 7 month old spirited baby nurses all night!! up every hour or less.  (Read 15152 times)

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Offline anna*

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Can you post the routine you are working with, perhaps that needs a tweak to make it easier for you all





hrk

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Hugs for the difficult sleeping.  Better, like you said, but definately room for improvement.

Our wind down routine was bottle (if doing at bedtime or a nap time where he would wake hungry if I didn't), bath, pjs/diaper, books on lap until drowsy, crib awake.  I cannot remember if I posted that. 

We had to use a lot of sh/pat to get him to sleep when he was waking or falling asleep in the beginning.  Then we used the gentle withdrawl to slowly reduce the amt of dependence.  So, we used sh/pat for soothing when crying (he hated pu/pd; it made things worse), then reduced to putting a hand on him, then stood next to the crib, then hid out of sight and calmed when crying, and then out the door.  The last stage of out the door didn't happen until 12 mo, after being on his adjusted dose for a bit.  I wonder if breaking it down will help?  I bet you are already trying everything.

I agree to post the current routine.  Something may pop out?

Offline zombiemom

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ok,
here's the schedule we are trying to keep with:

izzi's schedule:

7:00- wake, eat, potty
7:30- activity (morning play with daddy)
8:30- potty, then mellow play (lights lower and soft music)
9:00- sleep

11:00- wake, eat, potty
11:30- activity (play, store, errands, mom/baby yoga, or swim class)
12:30- potty, then mellow play (lights lower and soft music)
1:00- sleep

3:00- wake, eat, potty
3:30- activity (usually a long walk, then play)
5:00- potty, eat
6:00- sesame street sleepy video
6:30- bath
7:00- potty, eat, then start winding down routine
7:30- sleep

11:00- dream feed

we haven't been doing the dreamfeed, because she won't take the bottle.
she has been waking around 10:30-12:00, so i feed her then.
and again around 3:00-5:00 for her second feed.
when she wakes other times (under three hours since last feed) i have my husband go in and try to get her to sleep.

i nurse her before the winddown routine.

what do you think?


Offline anna*

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When you put her down for her naps, are you watching the clock or watching cues? I ask because at 7 months most can manage 2hrs 45mins or even 3 hrs of A time, so it may be that by extending her awake times she will sleep a bit easier and wake less at night.

When you're extending A times, go carefully and do it just in small increments, say 15 mins every few days. You don't want to end up with a OT bubs.





Offline sinbur

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Hi Sandra - Just quickly wanted to give you my best wishes and let you know that there is light at the end of the tunnel! I too have a spirited baby girl, she is now almost 8 months old and we had a very similar problem with her.

She was never a good sleeper and always seemed to nurse much more frequently than any of my friend's babies, at least every 2 hours day and night. This seemed normal(ish) when she was a newborn but as time wore on she seemed to be getting worse. She had been virtually impossible to get to sleep, rocking, bouncy chair, always swaddled, would only sleep on me etc. and then at about 9 weeks old I started nursing her to sleep. It would take 45 mins but at least I got to sit and hold her which was so lovely and I didn't have to listen to her cry. But then at around 3 months old, she started waking more and more at night. She would wake every hour, sometimes less through the night and would not go back to sleep unless I fed her. Sometimes she would just stay awake but other times she would SCREAM! I was a nervous wreck by the time she was 5 months old, I was so exhausted from all that feeding and lack of sleep. Also, naps were a nightmare, I would spend far longer getting her to sleep than she would actually sleep for, our darkened bedroom was my prison.

Anyway, enough about all that, I'm sure you know how it is! I had read BW and was trying sh/pat which worked for a while but then she started to resist it or become reliant on the patting, pu/pd never worked. She was super alert and would stare at anything in the room (light on the baby monitor, a crack in of light from the blinds etc.) as a focus as if to keep her eyes open! Don't know if this is your little one or not but mine was always very active and seemed manic at times from birth.

So, there are 2 things that I feel helped turn her around. The first is that I took her to see a good cranio-sacral therapist. After one session, she dozed off in her pram without crying and totally relaxed for the first time ever. That night, I nursed her to sleep but she was limp in my arms after 11 minutes, she had never felt so floppy to me. Over the next days and nights it continued to get easier to get her off to sleep. She was still waking lots through the night however. This was when I decided to teach her how to fall asleep without my help. I didn't think it would work, but I did the gradual withdrawal method. I changed her bed time routine so that we looked at a book together after her feed so she stayed awake, then I put her in her cot awake but sleepy. I sat by the cot and held her hand and kept telling her it was ok. The first night she cried for about half and hour, then whimpered for 10 minutes, then slept. The second night, still holding her hand, she cried for fifteen minutes. On the third night she was asleep in 2 minutes!! Then night by night I gradually moved away from her until after about 2 weeks I was putting her into her cot and kissing her goodnight and walking out the door and she was going to sleeeeeep! Amazing!! From there, she started waking a little less frequently and I would make a plan before I went to bed like - 'if she wakes less than 3 hours after the dreamfeed then I will tell her to go back to sleep'. Because I knew and she knew she could fall asleep without me, it was much less stressful than before. She would wake and I would say 'shhhh, back to sleep now baby', sometimes it took a while but there was no panicky screaming like before.

Sorry - this has gone on far longer than I intended. I just wanted to let you know that I thought things would never get better but I found a way that really worked for me and went from feeling quite depressed and sad to so happy and proud of my beautiful baby girl.  It took time, a month or more, and she still wakes once at night for a drink but I have my life back now. I wish you the best of luck. I know how tough it can be but just follow your instincts and you will get through it.

S.

Offline zombiemom

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wow sinbur,
that is really interesting!

your first paragraph i could have written about my daughter, exactly!!

she actually doesn't look around too much, she just stands up about 50-100 times almost every time.
until she gets so tired she bumps her head. it's ridiculous!

i actually took izzi to see a cranio-sacral therapist too, but it was for a nursing problem in the beginning.
she did also nap right afterwards, and sleep soundly! i wish i could afford to do that for her a lot!

i like your method of gradual withdrawl, but i'm not sure it would work with her standing all the time.
too bad i didn't try it a few months ago!
i tried to just let her stand up, and i would sit in a chair across the room from her.
basically she would just mess around for a while and then fuss because i was too far away.
then i would come back and lay her down again.
today i decided that letting her play just prolongs the whole deal.
so i just lay her down over and over again.
she gets frustrated and then falls asleep.
it just takes so long!
just now it took 45 minutes, which is better than most of the time.

hi anna,
i was kind of watching the clock for now because i read that when you first introduce the method that you need to do that in order to get her accustomed to the schedule.
i have been watching her a bit more and trying to put her to bed when she looks tired.
(yawning, rubbing eyes, grumpy yelling)

i'll try to extend the wake times and see.
i hope it works!

thanks again for listening to me complain,
and always offering great advice!
sandra

hrk

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You mentioned she is standing at 7 mo, lol???  Heath couldn't do that until he was 13 mo.  It sounds like you have some developmental stuff happening; that too can make it tough for lo's to sleep.  Heath still can't stand, as he sleeps in a grobag.    ;)

I also agree with the previous post that she may be undertired, so that is why she is giving you such a fuss at naptime.  Then she goes from 3-7:30, which may cause her to be overtired.  I think more a before naps (slowly stretch, as mentioned in pp) and less before bed may be helpful.  What do you think? 

Likely you have seen this.
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=85130.0

Offline A pair of Charlies

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My DS stood early too. We tried the grobag (he still uses one each sleep now) but it only stopped him standing for 1 day (the long end was tucked underneath his mattress too). Once he'd mastered the art, he was standing up in seconds. He crawls in a grobag too...I think some LOs are just determined to do what they want to do, whereas some others get the gist and lie down for sleep!  :)

I rarely lay my DS down; instead I encourage him to lie down. Otherwise we end up in a jack-in-the-box fight over it with him popping up as soon as he's laid down. I find that if I just encourage him to lie down himself - with praise and comfort when he does - that he will stay lying down. Simply doing this changed our sessions of up to 1hr+ of jack-in-the-box antics to him lying down may-ber 3 - 5 times at most before he stays down. Before I started patting the mattress etc, I would lie down on the floor next to his bed and just ignore his standing, occasionally patting the mattress.

Worked for me and a couple of mates. Might not work for you. The standing problem for us lasted months and months. He was 9 1/2 months old when I just had enough of waiting for the phase to pass.

Charlotte

Offline zombiemom

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hi,
just checking in.
things are getting worse and worse here.
am i expecting things to be fixed too soon?
it's only been a week and 4 days now,
but honestly it seems like months.
we still fight with her to take every nap and sleep.
she is waking up from her naps early,
so we try to get her back down.
she is waking more and more at night, too.
last night, 6-7 times or more.
i forget.
she wakes so much i end up feeding her because she is hungry and won't go back to sleep with out eating.
i try to only feed her if 3-4 hours have passed since the last feed.
but now i wonder if she is waking more to get fed more.
the wake times are random, not the same times each night.

i had such a hard time tonight.
my husband is at work.
it took me an hour to get her down and she woke after 2 hours.
then i fought with her for another hour.
she didn't even try to stand, she was too tired.
she just lay there and fussed.
for an hour!!!!
and not terribly upset fussing.
i tried not to feed her, since it seemed kind of early.
but after all the fighting it was time to feed her.
sometimes i feed her and she sleeps, and sometimes she goes on fighting.
it's hard to say how much sleep she gets when it is so broken.
i'm so tired and frustrated.

am i expecting too much, too soon?



hrk

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HUGS for the sleep dep.

I think you are giving it good effort.  As I mentioned, if you are giving it good effort, and you are not seeing results, perhaps it is time to rule out anything medical.  I do suggest seeing your doc, and picking up a copy of Colic Solved.  Have you had a chance to take a peek at the reflux board?

Did you get a chance to try the non-med adjustments I mentioned?  In my line of business, if you are using a number of interventions, and they are unsuccessful, you may want to rule out anything medical or see a doc. Saying that, and having worked with school age kids my professional life, I thought I should be able to "fix" Heath's problem of not sleeping.  I ignored some of my own advice... But eventually I was the one who brought the info to my doc to which lead to "fixing" the problem.  It may be something to rule in or rule out. 

Hugs again, we are here to support you whatever you decide. 
Jean :-) 

Offline zombiemom

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hi jean,

i have researched reflux a bit.
i also have a friend whose baby has reflux so i'm familiar with what it looks like.

Clues that your baby suffers from reflux:

Painful blasts of crying (more than the usual baby cries)
Frequent spitting up (but not always)
Inconsolable bouts of abdominal pain
Painful bursts of nightwaking
Fussiness, particularly after eating
Arching or writhing as if in pain
Seems to be more comfortable when carried upright, sleeping on the stomach, or sleeping propped up at a 30-degree angle.
Frequent, unexplained bouts of wheezing and chest infections and episodes of apnea
Sour breath; throaty noises    (Note: Baby may have many or only a few of these signs)

izzi doesn't have these symptoms.
she never seems in pain.
loves to be turned upside-down in play.
never spits up anymore.
and she isn't fussy after eating.

you said something about silent reflux, though.
i'm not sure what that is.

Offline anna*

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(((hugs))) sorry you're having such a tough time. Do you feel like she's overtired? If that's the case, can you put her down for naps earlier? Could she be in pain from teething? What do you think would happen if you just stopped feeding at night at all, do you think it would help the night wakings?





Offline zombiemom

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i don't think she is overtired. i try to get her to sleep when i see her cues. she is pretty clear with yawning and rubbing her eyes. i am trying the naps a bit later these past few days, with 3 hours of A time. are there certain things babies do when overtired that i can look for?
i'm confused with teething, too. i don't think she is right now, per se. it seems, to  me, that she has been teething since about two months old straight!
i don't know if i could stop feeding at night and get her to sleep by myself.
i have only been feeding her once or twice, no more.
but last night i tried to get her down with out feeding her.
and she fussed for an hour.
then i fed her and she went to sleep
honestly, i have no idea how to proceed.
i'm just trying to stay consistent.

any and all suggestions are always welcome!


Offline anna*

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Honestly if the night wakings aren't improving I would be inclined to stop night feeds.

In animal studies, they have found that if a dog always gets a treat when he treads on a lever, then if you stop giving treats he will very quickly stop treading on the lever. But if you SOMETIMES give a treat, he will go on and on and on treading on the lever. I think it is just confusing if you sometimes feed and sometimes do not.

Signs of overtiredness are short naps, fighting sleep, lots of night wakings especially in the first part of the night, early starts in the morning. I would try to have her in bed just before she starts rubbing her eyes and acting really tired, which means you need to work out what her ideal A time is and watch the clock for when to get her to bed. She may already be overtired by the time you are putting her to bed which will make her fight sleep more.

anna
x





Offline zombiemom

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hmmm.
i'll try it.
it'll be hard with out my husband!
but it's worth a try!
thanks.
i'll work on those and see.