Back again.....things are not getting any better!

[yellow rose]

My lo will be 7 months old at the end of this week.  I have been posting about his napping problems from day one and things are still awful!  I just don't know what to do anymore.  I have had lots of great advice and when I last left off, it was suggested to move his A time to 3 hours, which we have done, but still no improvement.  Here is what today has looked like so far:

woke at 6:20
E 6:30
solids 7:00
S 9:20 - 10:30
E 11:30
solids 12:00
S 1:10 - 1:45

His first A time was 3 hours and the 2nd I shortened by 20 minutes because of his short morning nap.  The morning nap is weird because it's just over an hour and he often does that. He'll wake after 1 hour 15 minutes which seems an odd amount of time to sleep.  And no, he does not wake happily!  He screams!  I try to extend his naps by just standing next to his crib with my hand on his belly or legs (I am not one for pu/pd), but he literally SCREAMS at me.  It is such an angry, ear piercing cry and it literally sends me to tears as well.  Imagine that scene:  baby screaming in crib, mommy crying over top of him.    There is no peace in my house during nap time and by the early evening, he is a complete mess because he is so exhausted. 
I stood with him for about 10 or 15 minutes after he woke from the afternoon nap, but got so frustrated, that I had to leave the room.  I dare say that he is quiet now, but that was after the crying escalated even more because I left.
I just don't know what to do anymore.  I have lost complete control over his schedule and my sanity!  Please help!!!!!
At least he sleeps well at night (fingers crossed!).  He goes to bed at 6:30 (exhausted!) and wakes around 6:00/6:30 the next morning.  That's definitely a good thing, but what do I do about the naps?? 

[CRHMOM]

Hi,

Just wanted to let you know we are in the same boat as you and my son will be 7 months old next week. For the last two months he has been doing 2*1.5-2 hrs naps a day but now they are getting to be more like 1 hr 15 minutes. So he gets only 2.5 hours of sleep in a day. He sleeps through the night and goes to bed at 7 and wakes up at 6:30ish. He is already getting on the upper end of awake time 3-3.25 hrs. The only thing different is when my son wakes up he has crib parties and practices rolling around and playing with his oceans wonder aquarium. Have you tried leaving him to go back to sleep when he wakes up early from a nap? I know my son gets angry when I don't pick up and I try to stand over the crib and shushh him back to sleep. It doesn't work. I just give him 15 minutes or so to see if he self-settles and if he doesn't I just get him up. Its frustrating his naps are vanishing. I am SURE he will be done to 1 nap by the time he is 9 months --scary!!! Hang in there you are not alone!!!!
Trisha

[yellow rose]

It's nice to know that I am not alone!
Yes, I have tried leaving him to cry it out for a bit, but he never settles himself back to sleep.  He gets so worked up that he can't calm down.  I wish he was like your lo though and waking up happy.  The screaming is driving me absolutely crazy!  If he woke happy, I would assume he had enough sleep and nap time would be over, but when he wakes up crying like that, it's an indication to me that he has not gotten enough sleep, so I try to get him back to sleep, but honestly, it has never worked.  I wonder if I should just give it up at this point.
I am looking forward to when he is down to one nap to tell you the truth.  Living my life around two naps that aren't actually working anyway is getting to be too much.  Some days I wonder why I even try to get him to nap and then out of the blue, he'll take a two hour nap.  Those days are sooooooo rare, but when he does that, I always think maybe he'll continue with that the next day, but that's never the case.
I am sorry that you are having a difficult time with this as well.  Good luck to you and thanks for your encouragement.

[~Alexa~]

Hi there!! Sorry to hear you keep having nap problems!!   Hang in there!! I know how frustrating it can be, but we will get to the bottom of things!!

I checked your latests posts and your routine, and I think your lo may be having UT naps.  The first one is 1 hr 15 min long, which I wouldn't consider a short nap, though we may try to lengthen it by having more A time.  You are treating that first nap as a short nap and having very short A time after it, so then you get an even shorter nap.  This is what I would do: (I'm taking this info from your latest posts)

Wake up 6:30 a.m.
A. 6:30 a.m. - 9:45 a.m. (3 hr 15 min A time)This includes ALL the time he is awake until the moment he closes his eyes again)
S. 9:45 a.m. - 11:15 a.m. (Hopefully this will be 2 hr nap, but if it isn't, it is ok)

A. 11:15 a.m - 2:30 p.m. (3 hrs 15 min A time)
S. 2:30 p.m - 4:00 p.m. (Hopefully it will be 2 hrs, but if it is 1.5 it is perfect)

Then, I would have a 7 p.m bedtime. Does this make sense?

I think your lo is a bit UT for the first nap.  He may be ready for more A time.  Then, he gets very short A time before the second nap, so you end up with another UT nap.  So let's try increasing those A times and see if that helps.

You said that your lo wakes up crying from the nap, but he is pretty happy during his A times.  Again, this makes me think UT.

Personally, I consider naps to be short when they last less than 1 hr.  So I wouldn't treat the first nap as a short one and have a short A time after it.  This may be the reason for your lo's screaming when you try to put him back to sleep.  He may have had enough sleep.  

When you feel you can't deal with this anymore, go for a walk and stop thinking about sleep training for a couple of days.  That's what I do when I get so stressed because my lo won't nap as I want him to.  I go for a walk and take my lo with me and try to forget about sleep training.  I do APOP for a couple of days, and then, I'm back again with a fresh mind and heart!! 

Hang in there, as Trisha said, you are not alone!! We'll get this sorted out!! Hugs,
Alexa

[hjrmom01]

I just want to throw in my hugs and let you know that YOU ARE NOT ALONE!  I have just gotten some EXCELLENT help from the ladies on here about our nap problems (we are still far from perfect but getting better).  My LO would seem SO tired after just a short amount of time in the morning so I would put him back to bed and then I kept getting short naps which would just screw up the whole day, lead to NW and EW's and lead to an ever worse next day.  And by golly, lengthening that first A time in the morning....started to get longer naps!  The first time I did it I only got a 1 hr nap but I kept him up (he's 5 months, almost 6 now!) for a full 2 hours and he slept for 2 hrs.  I agree with pp that anything over an hour "should" be able to do full A time since it is at least one full sleep cycle.  Granted, the following A shouldn't be all exciting and lights/noise/stimulating.  We usually keep the last 30-45 min VERY calm (especially after a "shorter" nap).  I find this really helps.  As scary as it was to stretch his first A time (we REALLY fear the OT monster) it really has been the key to getting a good nap.  Now, if only the rest would fall into place.  Oh well, baby steps!! 

Anywho...hang in there and know that you are NOT alone....and there is ALWAYS someone here to help! HUGS! 

[yellow rose]

Thanks so much for your advice, ladies.  It is all so overwhelming and confusing.  Just a few questions for you:

If tomorrow, for example, he seems really sleepy at the usual 3 hour mark, should I push him an extra 15 minutes and forget his cues?
Even though I just upped his A time, you think it's time to do it again?  Or did I just not up it enough?
What if the first nap really is short?  Like 30 mins?  Then how long would you make his next A time?  And would you try to extend the first nap or let it go?

[~Alexa~]

Listening to other moms' stories is always encouraging.  As you can see, lots of moms have gone through short naps!! I have also been there.  I just got out of short naps this week.  The solution was to increase my lo's A times.  He is 5.5 months and he is doing 3 hr A time.  Can you believe it? I thought it was too much for his age, so I kept putting him to sleep after 2.5 hr of being awake, until I took the risk and increased his A times, and now, we dropped the catnap and we have 2 long naps with 3 hr A time.  I was also very scared of the OT monster, but here I am, no OT monster, and long naps!! So, you will also get there, it is just a matter of finding the right A time. 

I would try to increase A times to 3 hr 15 min even though you just increased them.  I think that you are still getting short naps because he needs more. 
30 min naps are short, so if he takes a 30 min nap, reduce his next A time by 30 min.  I have a hunch that tells me that this won't happen, but if it does, don't feel frustrated, just think that tomorrow will be a new day where you will get another chance to get it right.  And belive me, you will have to experiment with different A times until you find the right ones. 
If the first nap is 30 min, then try to extend it, but if it doesn't work, don't stress, take your lo out of the crib and have A time. If it is 1 hr 20 min, let it go! That was a good nap!

If your lo seems tired at the 3 hr mark, then try to carry him in a sling and do some housework.  Walking around really calms los.  That's what I did when I increased my lo's A times.  I put my lo in the sling and did the laundry, tidy the room...or sometimes took a walk in the garden.  Then, I would go into the nursery and have really quiet time, and then, he would go straight to bed.  You can also hold your lo and have him look through the window.  This is really low key activity and it is a great way to lengthen their A time. 

Is it possible you are confusing his "im bored" signs with "im tired" signs?

Good luck
Keep us posted
Alexa

[yellow rose]

THANK YOU!!!  THANK YOU!!!  THANK YOU!!!  I didn't want to post anything until it seemed we were truly getting a better nap system down and after three good days, I'd say we're headed in the right direction!     I extended his A time to 3 hours 15 minutes, as you suggested, and it really seems to have made a difference.  This morning, he woke after only one hour and 15 minutes and I was just getting ready to go and get him and then realized he was quiet again.  He had actually gone back to sleep!  And I had to wake him at the 2 hour mark!  I couldn't believe it!

Now, I do have a question though about the afternoon nap.  This morning's nap was over at 11:25, so technically, I shouldn't put him down until around 2:40, but that seems to be getting too late for a nap because he might possibly sleep until 4:40.  I can probably wake him earlier than the two hour mark, so it doesn't mess with his bedtime.  I certainly don't want to screw up his good night time sleep now.  Should I wake him after 1 1/2 hours?  Also, since he is on the upper end of A time, what will happen when I need to increase his A time again?  Then, his naps will definitely be too late.  How does that work?  Once my oldest got into a solid routine of one AM and one PM nap, the times never changed.  He just always went down at 9:00 and 1:00 until he went to one nap, so I'm not sure what to do when my lo needs another change in times. 

Thanks again for all of your input and support.  You ladies rock!

[~Alexa~]

I'm so happy to hear you sorted things out!! Congratulations!! You did a great job!!

You can try waking him up after 1.5 hr of being asleep so that you keep his bedtime at the same time. 
Personally, I would try having the last nap at the same time every day.  Even though he is able to handle more A time, I would keep offering it at the same time, until it gets really short and then your lo doesn't need it.

Hope this helps
Alexa

[yellow rose]

Thanks, Alexa.

I have another question for you.  I have a hard time judging when my lo is actually awake in the morning which on a couple of days has made it hard to judge his first nap.  I usually hear him stirring pretty early, sometimes before 6:00, and usually he fusses for a second, but then he gets quiet again for 15 minutes, fusses again, quiet again, and then he's really ready to get up around 6:30.  Any thoughts on how to judge when he's truly awake?  I know that's a tough one, but thought I'd throw it out there.

[~Alexa~]

It is hard to know when your lo is awake just by listening to him, but if he gets quiet for around 15 min, I would say he falls back asleep.  I have a video monitor, so I know when he wakes up by looking through the camera.
But, I think that even though he wakes up earlier, you should have that first nap at the same time.  By doing this, if he is waking up early, he will stop relying on the nap as an extension of his night sleep, so he will better sleep in.  Does this make sense? So, I would still try to have that first nap considering 6:30 a.m. as his wake up time. 

Hope this helps
Alexa

[yellow rose]

Okay, let me clarify here.  You think I should make his first nap a set time each day, say 9:45?

[~Alexa~]

Yeap!! That's what I would do....Especially if he is starting to wake up a bit earlier, but he is staying in his crib for those 15 min.  So, if you are getting him up for the day at 6:30 a.m, I would consider that as his wake up time, and have him nap at the same time even though he woke up at 6:15 a.m., but stayed in his crib until 6:30 a.m.  Am I clear?

Is he having his first nap at 9:45 a.m. right now? So, if having his nap at 9:45 a.m. is working for you right now, I would try keeping it at the same time when he wakes up EARLIER.  If you start moving that nap earlier, he will begin relying on it as an extension of his night sleep and may start waking up earlier every day.

Alexa

[yellow rose]

I've been writing down the last few days so I could keep track of what was working and what wasn't.  His morning nap has started anywhere from 9:25 to 9:35 and lasted 1.5 to 2 hours after 3:15 A time.  Then, I have been putting him down after about 3 hrs. of A time in the afternoon because he gets REALLY fussy.  The PM nap is not typically as long as the morning nap.  Yesterday, he woke after 30 minutes, but went back to sleep on his own.  However, the rest of his nap was very fitful.  The other days though he has slept anywhere from 1 hr. 15 mins. to 1 hr. 30 mins.  I'm still trying to work on the PM timing as he is a real grump past 1:30 p.m.

[~Alexa~]

I think you have done an excellent job!! Your lo is taking longer naps and being able to settle by himself!!

Keep following his tired signs and put him down as you have done it around 9:25 - 9:35 a.m.

Good luck