I'm missing the sleep cues! I think?

[fyrc]

So we managed a great nap today - 2 hours - possibly the first 2 hour nap in his 8 weeks of life. After sleeping for 2 hours, I changed his diaper and we sat down for a nursing session. He nursed for 20 minutes. After nursing, he stretched and yawned.

Was that a sleep cue?

I thought it was basically a "mmm...my belly is full and i feel good" yawn. Since nursing is supposed to be drowsy-inducing, isn't it?

So I kept going with A. Watching him carefully another yawn or other cue. After about 45 minutes since wake up (25 minutes after the end of nursing) I thought, I haven't seen any yawns, he still seems like he's in a good mood, but A is usually less than an hour (this time it was 45 minutes) so maybe we should try for a nap.

Swaddled, brought to bedroom, white noise machine, dark room, 5 min wind-down in my arms - he's snuggly.

In the crib. Sh/Pat for 30 minutes...finally eyes close. Watch clock. Eyes pop open 2 minutes later. Won't go back to sleep
Sh/Pat for 90 minutes. Start screaming at 91st minute. Sh/pat going nowhere.

Now, where was my error? Should I have popped him for a nap immediately after that yawn that came immediately after nursing? That would have been 0 A time. Is that what I was supposed to do?

He's now 8 weeks old. I HATE this sh/pat thing, since I am utterly getting nowhere. (That 2 hour nap was AP - I couldn't deal with the futility of it all)

Going off to read that support thread on sh/pat. Nothing like knowing that I am not the only one that can't do this to help.

[lilac83]

What cues do you normally follow?

Remember, A time includes the feed. So if he fed for 20 minutes, then he would have had 20 minutes of A time plus however long it takes him to wind down and fall asleep. How many days have you been trying sh/pat?

[fyrc]

Robin,
We've been trying sh/pat since February (after Valentine's Day?) so ... three weeks? Almost four? The time kind of blurs together.

I generally wait for  a yawn, or a moaning sound he makes if he is in his chair saying, "I don't wanna do this"

He is generally quiet, so I can't really wait for the "quiet" or "slow movements" cue. Because that's him almost all the time (Except when he's on the changing pad - then he's giggly and happy)

Because I know the yawn is already too   late, I  look at the clock alot. I start sh/pat between 30 to    50 minutes  since he  woke up (so about 15 to 20 minutes after nursing).

It never works since I always end up doing sh/pat for an hour or 90 minutes, before I give up, or he finally sleeps for 25 minutes-30 minutes.

If he yawns after nursing, should I  just shuttle him to bed?

[fyrc]

PS - same thing today, so here's EASY so far:

wake up 7:30
E 20 minutes
A 7:50 to 8:05 happy. being held while we talk/get older child dressed for school. total A: 35 min
sh/pat from 8:10 (after diaper change, snuggly soothing in arms) to 9:15
S: 9:15 to 9:45 (i stayed and did sh/pat for 20 minutes from when eyes closed and sucking relaxed, the way the book says to) he still woke up with a 30 min nap

had to go to doctor's office, so put him in car. Slept from 10:15 to 11:30, when I came home. Kept sleeping in car seat until 12:50

E: nurse 15 min 12:55 to 1:10
A immediately fussy. calmed down in sling. around 1:30 (total A 40 minutes)
noticed droopy eyes
S: nap routine - snuggly. in crib by 1:40
snuggly, sh/pat till 2, finally eyes closed at 2. a jolt at 2:02 woke him up. Thrashing. sh/pat in crib. calmed down. it's time to nuse again and he hasn't slept yet.

I have to leave at 3:30 to get older child. I have no idea what to do. nurse? keep sh/pat?

I assume I am missing sleep cues. I have no idea if he is overstimulated. Most of his A time is being held and listening to music on the CD. Sometimes looking at dangly toys on his chair, but we haven't done that yet today.

*total A includes nursing time

With the exception of the insanely long nap today, this is his routine for the most part. (30-45 minute total A, 30 min nap after more than an hour sh/pat) I usually do a AP nap in the late afternoon  to reset  him since we have to  pay attention to other kid. Which is where I was yesterday, with the failed nap (we finally slung him after 2 hours of sh/pat  for a 30 min nap).

so-should I have started sh/pat immediately after nursing (despite the long nap)?  did i start sh/pat too early in the morning? what should i do if sh/pat brings us to eat time? stop? keep going? is there a point i should stop sh/pat and call it a failed nap? I usually manage 2 30-min naps, 1 60-min "cheat" nap (AP, sling) usually around 4, 2 or 3  failed naps through the day, and 2 25-min sling naps in the evening from 6:30 to 8:30 before bedtime.

he's 2 months today (8w3d).

i tried stepping away when he was calm, to see if he would sleep on his own. I didn't even get 3 feet before he started screeching.

(just nursed him and stuck him back in the crib even though we have to leave in 20 min) sh/pat still. sigh.

[lilac83]

I wonder if sh/pat is too stimulating for him. I don't think his A times are too long from when you start trying to get him down, but it seems something is keeping him awake. Is he relaxed while you're doing the sh/pat? Perhaps instead of the patting you could just apply light pressure and use the "sh" sound. I would keep doing the AP cheat nap for now until we can figure out how to get him to fall asleep faster and sleep longer. This will help a lot in keeping him from getting too OT.

I never sh/patted my DD longer than 20 minutes (I just didn't have the patience). She would cry the whole time though, so if your LO is relaxed and you wish to keep going, then keep going until the next E. At the next E time, step away for a moment and then return like he just woke from his nap. Smiling, "Hi, I'm so happy to see you" type of mood.

Let me know how he responds to just the pressure instead of the pat. We can brainstorm some more ideas if that doesn't work out either.

[fyrc]

I just wanted to post an update, and a THANK YOU to Robin!
We aren't out of the woods yet, but there's a dramatic improvement.

We can now easily get him down for naps that last at least an hour consistently in the mornings. Afternoons are still tricky. But it looks like the pat was the problem. Now that we do pressure, he responds well to that.

So we still do the swaddle, and then snuggling next to the crib for about 5 to 7 minutes.
Into the crib (which is inclined), with the white noise on
While shushing we do:
have him suck on our finger till he is calm
Then hand on chest, a heavy hand, as if we are pushing him into the crib, to help send him into deep sleep. Visualizing pushing him into the bed helps me get that steady pressure.
After 20 minutes, we lighten the hand to feel like a feather for 1 minute to make sure he's out cold
Then we keep a hand hovering over him for 1 minute to make sure he's out cold
Then we stand with no hands, just shushing for 1 minute
finally, stand for 1 minute watching for any sign of wakening.
And then escape!

We are having great mornings now with this method. Tricky afternoons - short naps still and long sh/pressure times. And then in the late evenings slinging. But it's such a progress, thank you.

[lilac83]

I'm so glad to hear the pressure works! How are his A times? If he's only sleeping 30/45 minutes, he was probably awake too long. Keep up the good work, he'll get there!

[fyrc]

Well, afternoons remain impossible.From 12 noon to 6pm, we manage just two naps, 45 minutes each. I am at my wits end. He is either calm, just not sleeping, despite all the yawns in the early afternoon, or crying and fussing and thrashing in the late afternoon.

We are doing 2 hour sh/pressures and still not having any success. If he is quiet, should I be doing shpat? or wait for him to get fussy, and then shpat?

When he gets to his nursing time (3pm) I take him out of the crib, still swaddled, nurse him but not let him fall asleep, and then back in the crib. He doesn't fall asleep still.

The pressure works for his 11am nap. I am not sure why it doesn't work for the rest of  the day. He's so exhausted he's no longer sleeping well at night. And I can't even get him to sleep AP anymore to try to catch up, either. It's a vicious cycle. The only good period of sleep for him is from 3am to 10am. I am alternating between no A (out of crib, diaper change, back in crib) to 30 minutes A (out of crib, nurse, diaper change, back in crib), and he is still unable to sleep.

[lilac83]

If he's laying quietly in his crib, I would try leaving him and see if he falls asleep by himself. So he's still taking a good morning nap? What is his A time before this nap and then how long does he sleep?