once perfect sleeper gone crazy...

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

so i haven't posted in a while because frankly my lo is textbook angel and well.....she had been napping and sleeping at night in a way that most would kill for. she is 9 months now and for the last month everything has gone wonky. not only is she waking up every night but now i hace to do PD for her to go down during the day, before bed and when she has her NW. it started with a cold (i thought).  she would wake at night ver upset but at most it took 20 mins for her to go back down. she was still falling asleep on her own for naps and bedtime. around the same time as her night wakings her naps started getting shorter and shorter (almost consistently 45 mintues). PD works but it gets worse every night...not better. it used to take 15-20 to get her back to sleep...and the last two nights it has taken 1.5 hours to get her to bed in the first place as well as another 1.5 hours when she gets up in the middle of the night. i have heard that this kind of thing happens at this age...but i just feel like something i am doing must need fixing. last night she only slept for about 9 hours and this morning took a half hour nap. the short naps didn't really bother me when she was getting through the night for 12 hours. i just figured she was ok with about 2 hours of sleep during the day. she seemed fine. it did seem strange though because she was always on the high end as far as sleep was concerned. i am thinking that she is US during the day maybe. maybe we don't do enough. i try to get her to extend her naps but it is impossible. i am starting to getfrustrated with her and that is the worst feeling because i know she isn't trying to annoy me. anyway - her routine is something like this (although it is really all over the place now because no day is the same)....

keep in mind....she used to be the model baby....and all of a sudden...crazy nw, short naps and all sleep cues have changed or gone out the window..

wake - b/t 6-7
E - breast
A for an hour
eat solids
A - about 2 hours
S - all over (sometimes 2 hours but most of the time 45 minutes / today half hour)
E - breast
A - about an hour and 30 min
E - Solids
A - another 1.5 (total A is about 3-4 hours)
S - nap - this one tends to be longer sometimes but not always (about 3:30-5:00) some times a touch later
E - breast
A - hour
E - solids
A - bath / book etc.
S - bed is same time she woke or half hour later. although if her naps really stubk then she will be exhausted and we go to bed earlier. lately it takes forever to get her to bed.


any help anyone could provide would be great! maybe she isn't getting enough activity during the day... we are in the house a lot because of the cold weather.

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

here is the best that I can do since things change every day now - depending upon how long she is up at night. I let her sleep in in the morning. (for my sanity and for her health)

it used to look something like this (probably got really crazy in the last three days....nw have been on and off for about a month. she got sick and woke for a week and then stopped for a week and has been getting up now for about 3 weeks...the last three days particularly bad). Also - she probably has been doing 45 minute naps for the same amount of time which I overlooked because she is such a good sleeper / napper that I figured she knew what she wanted. I probably created a pattern by accident by not encouraging her back to sleep. anyway - I am rambling but I am just so frustrated and tired and she really was amazing in the sleep dept. for the longest time. It just turned on a dime. (by the way - she is VERY mobile and def. is having separation issues).

6:30 wake & E (bf)
A- 6:45 (one hour of floor play)
7:45 - solid breakfast
8:15 - A until about 10:00 (some days she is less tired than others although her cues have really changed and I have no idea what her new ones really are)
10:00 - Nap....fights me to go down (started fighting about 7-10 days ago...she fought the night before she fought the naps)
11:00 - E-bf (this depends on how long her nap was...some are still long 1.5/2 hrs and some are 45 minutes and she wakes up happy)
11:15 - A (sometimes we go out and sometimes depending upon weather we stay in and play)
12:15 - E solids
12:45 - A (more of the same depending again on weather)
2:30 - Nap (this nap can be anywhere from 2:30 till 4:00 - it really depends on how the earlier part of her day went) but it used to be at about 2:30 / 3:00 and it was always about 1.5 hours and now it has trimmed down to about an hour if we are lucky
3:30 / 4:00 - E BF
3:45 / 4:15 - A (same as before)
5:45 / 6:00 - E solids
6:30 - Bath / Bed ritual including one more BF
7:00 / 7:30 - Bed (again this could be a bit earlier depending on her day- if she is really tired I take her right to bed and have an earlier dinner)

Keep in mind also - she is a very happy baby. Rarely cranky....

I think her NW has now become habit because she has been up at 3 the last three nights. However, it is taking longer and longer to get her back down at night....used to be 20 minutes, then 30 then 60 then 90 and now last night 2.5 hours. She doesn't cry - she just gets up a lot for the first 30 mintues and then spends the rest of the time trying to go back to sleep and just can't get there.

thanks again in advance. I know I am all over the place - sorry.

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

honestly I have done that. I usually have her back in bed in three hours...i was trying to go with her signals and not be so specific about the times. it is sort of a moot point right now because she doesn't get up at the same time anymore because she is up for so long at night.

the problem here is that since she is waking at night for hours at a time...we are waaaaaaayyyy off schedule and she didn't get up today until 10 am. I am not sure how to get back on track and also how to stop the habitual night wakings. should I be doing wake to sleep? for her naps - should I be going in at the half hour mark to help her stay down longer?

thanks for the help. anyone with comments would be appreciated.

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

why w2s for naps? I thought that was for NW....(according to the book)...

[~Alexa~]

Hi there!! So you can use w2s for naps too!! (BWSAYP p. 251) I'm not sure if it will work with your lo because she is 9 mo, so you will have to hide from her, because the minute she sees you, then w2s will be game over!! 

I have to run now, my lo got up from nap, but I'll be back with some ideas about your routine!!

[~Alexa~]

So I'm back!! I think your lo may be going through some SA issues.  Also, I think that she is getting closer to the 2-1 nap transition.  This may be causing the NW and the short naps.  Your lo is waking up in the middle of the night to chat, right? She is not crying nor screaming during NW? I think she is finding the extra A time by waking up in the night. We need to increase her A times during the day. 

I also agree with Jane about wake up time.  If you want to get back on track, then you need to wake her up in the morning.  I know how hard it can be, (you are exhausted), but she needs to get the message that the day is for being awake and the night is for sleep.  If you let her sleep in, this can become a habit (the NW).  If your lo is waking up in the night, and is not crying, then let her be.  Don't go to her.  Let her go back to sleep by herself.  Don't worry if it takes her 1 hr to fall back asleep, but if you keep going to her, it may become a habit.    If she wakes up at the same time every night, then try w2s to break the habitual waking.

So by looking at your routine, I assume you want wake up to be at 6:30 am, am I right? So I would try to put your lo down for the first nap at 9:30 am and see how things go. She was taking longer naps one month ago, right? Or has she always been a short napper?

Take a look at this thread.  I think this may apply to your lo.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=95670.0
http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=41952.0

2-1 transition thread.  http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145344.0

Hope this helps,
Alexa

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

Thanks so much both of you. Alexa - I was really happy to read your messae cause you said a lot of the things that I was thinking. She is def. having SA issues. She used to go down for naps and bedtime with a kiss and a smile and suck her little thumb off to sleep. Now she doesn't want me to leave her. She does wake up to chat and she doesn't really cry hysterical...but she is upset...she stands up and cries / whines and eventually falls down and hits her head. Then she is really hysterical. The first half hour she just keeps standing up and rolling around...after that she tries to go back to bed but can't get there. I would love to not go in but if I don't she gets really upset. I pick her up when she is crying but as soon as her breathing gets normal I put her back down.

I also agree that she might need only one nap. i neglected to mention that there waone days a few weeks ago where she just didn't need her morning nap. So she took one long midday nap and she actually slept through the night. I usually don't mess with her wake up time...we just happened to both fall back asleep this morning by accident.

To answer your questions...I like when she does a 7/7:30 morning. So - her nap should be 10 / 10:30 but I think I am going to try to move her to just one nap. She does the 45 stuff and isn't cranky afterward so trying to put her back down for more time is pointless. She isn't tired. Yes - one month ago - she was taking two 1.5-2 hour naps. She always took really long naps. Not a short napper at all. Actually she used to nap so long that I was worried something was wrong with her.

I think that my plan is going to be to try to transition to the one nap and I think I may have to do W2S tonight. What do you think? Which should I do first or do I do them both at the same time? She will only get one nap today because the day was so off. She is going to bed around 6:30.

So - will the night waking and SA ever end? I know that when she is 2 I am going to be sad that she isn't 9 months and I will wonder what I was so worried about...I am just reaching a breaking point at the moment and would really like my nights back. It is really hard to hang my hands over her crib for 2 hours in the middle of the night.

Thanks again you two. Let me know what you think.

Jessica

[~Alexa~]

Hi Jessica!! So, I would go easy on the 2-1 nap switch.  This switch is supposed to happen at around 18 mo! Some bubs start the transition very early (like yours), but this doesn't mean that you should stop offering two naps a day! This means that you should start pushing the first nap a bit later, and still have a pm nap.  You can either wake your lo up from the am nap, or let her sleep as long as she wants, and then, wake her up from the pm nap in order to preserve bedtime.  This switch takes a loooong time.  If you go cold turkey, your lo will get OT, and still get NW or EW, so we have to do this slowly. 

Try to go into the http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=145344.0 . You can get great ideas over there!!

I think your lo's NW are related to her A times during the day (and this is related to the 2-1 nap switch).  So by getting the right A times your lo will take better naps, and no NW.  Does this make sense?

The NW could also be caused by her ability to stand up.  When bubs reach a developmental milestone, they start waking up in the middle of the night to practice.  I know this sounds crazy, but it happens, so after this, she may be finding it difficult to go back to sleep.  I think you are doing the right thing by going to her when she starts crying, and just putting one hand on her chest for her to fall asleep.  Did you use shpat when your lo was younger? Did she like it? Have you tried using it again? Some bubs find it overstimulating when they get older, but other babies LOVE it, even at 18 mo. 

So I think our plan should be this:  Wake up at 7 am.  Then, am nap at 10 am.  Let's see what happens.  If she takes a short nap, then put her down for another nap at 2 pm.  Have the am nap at 10 for a couple of days.  If she keeps having a short nap, then we will move it to 10:15 am, keep it there for 3 more days, and then we can add 15 more min and so on. 
Keep offering the pm nap.  If your lo totally refuses it, don't fight her, take her out of the room, have some A time and try again a bit later.  If she still refuses it, then, let her play in the crib for some quiet time, and put her to bed a bit earlier. 
Your lo will have a pm nap for some more months, so don't go cold turkey and stop offering it. 
Hopefully, by having more A time during the day, your lo will stop waking up in the middle of the night. Fingers crossed!

Keep me posted on how things go!!
Alexa

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

I wasn't planing to go cold turkey...just today since today is soooo screwed up already. I will try your plan. Just extend A time by 15 minutes in the morning to see if I can get a longer nap / no NW. I will try to get her to do an afternoon nap (she always does)...just today it wont fit in...so we are going to just have to go to bed early and start fresh tomorrow.

do you think I should do a W2S tonight?

When she does wake up I do PD with a firm hand. It works when she is ready to go back to sleep but before that I have to just wait around for her to sit or stand up so I can PD.

I never did shh/pat cause I never had to. She literally has ALWAYS put herself to sleep.

thanks again

[~Alexa~]

If your lo is waking up at 3 am every night, then try w2s!! It may be a habit now, and we need to break it!!

Good luck tonight!! keep me posted on how tomorrow goes after the first 15 min increment!!

Alexa

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

I am going to keep you posted so I also have  record of what is going on. We woke at 6:30 this morning after 3 NW last night. (I am not really counting last night since her day yesterday was totally off). I am going to do W2S tonight at 2am. So - she started yawning (all morning really) but at 9:15...so I took her in for a short wind down and put her in by 9:30. I did PD for about 10 minutes. Per your thoughts, I am going to just try to let her sleep and not go in to extend the nap. I just want to watch these first few days. Ideally she will sleep until 11 but I don't have my hopes up. I am thinking she will probably get up around 10:30....we will see.

Thanks again and I will be posting soon.

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

so first try not so great....asleep by 9:40 ish and awake at 10:20 ish.... i was going to go sush her at around 35 minutes but i decided to go to the bathroom instead. (i knoe - how dare i) of course i see her start to stir on the monitor and i knew i would never make it to shhh her back to sleep. oh well. now - when do i offer the next nap?? tomorrow i am adding 15 minutes because it has been going on like this for a while. naps are very short in the morning.

[~Alexa~]

Ok, so if she woke up at 10.20 am, I would give her 3 - 3.25 hr A time.  So try to put her down at 1.20 - 1.45 pm and see what happens.  If she still takes a short nap, then you will have an early bedtime or have a short catnap in the afteroon.  You can do some APOP for this nap.  But from 2 pm till bedtime is too long for her. 

One thing,  if you get an EW, don't move the am nap earlier.  On the contrary, add 15 min to the first A time tomorrow and let's see what happens. 

We will have to experiment until we get it right, but we need to move slowly to avoid OT. 

[Leia and Sabrina's Mom - Jessica]

so go slow with me here....I am going to respond to all of your comments below...

Ok, so if she woke up at 10.20 am, I would give her 3 - 3.25 hr A time.  (that is really where we used to be...she was about a 3.5 but I was just trying to start over to gague where things are)

So try to put her down at 1.20 - 1.45 pm and see what happens.  If she still takes a short nap, then you will have an early bedtime or have a short catnap in the afteroon.  (I didn't try at that time because she wasn't even close to being tired. I waited until I saw the very first signs of her being tired...so slight that I wasn't even sure - that was at 2:05. I took her in and did 10 mins of WD...and put her in. She did one stand up and I put her down and she was out in minutes).

You can do some APOP for this nap.  No idea what APOP is???

But from 2 pm till bedtime is too long for her.  How about 3-6:30? is that acceptable?

One thing,  if you get an EW, don't move the am nap earlier.  On the contrary, add 15 min to the first A time tomorrow and let's see what happens.  (Really? So even if she gets up at 6 when 6:30 is normal...I should still do the 9:45 nap? That would be 15 more than today...)

We will have to experiment until we get it right, but we need to move slowly to avoid OT. THANKS!!!!!!! YOU HAVE BEEN EXCELLENT!!!

[~Alexa~]

Hi Jess!!
APOP = Accidental Parenting On Purpose  (do anything to get her to sleep) Rock her, feed her, whatever works for her to sleep 20 min or so.

Yes, even if she wakes up early, keep the am nap at the same time.  If you move it earlier, you will only encourage an EW.  So, either you keep it at the same time (the am nap) or add 15 min to that A time so that she doesn't rely on it as an extension of her night sleep. 

From 3 - 6.30 pm sounds fine.  (3.5 hrs A time sounds good) But, if she looks tired before, then put her down. 

How long was her 2.05 pm nap?

Keep me posted!!
xxx
Alexa