? about lengthening the 45 minute nap! help!

[Analu]

Hi, My dd is 6 months old and I'm just reading the BW solves all your problems for the first time. She has reflux, is seeing a ped gi and is on reflux meds-- it seems to be under control to the best of our abilities-- our first was a refluxer so we know a lot about that around our house.  We just started solids last week and she loves them. We haven't had a set schedule and dd was nursing to sleep all the time.  Things were fine until 4 months of age-- good naps and going 8 and 10 hours at night. Then she started nursing throughout the night (initially with a thrush/yeast infection and then out of habit-accidental parenting!), and naps went from long (in the the swing-- I know, probably not good but that's what we did) to 45 mins max anywhere else.  ANyway, I began the routine Tracey suggested, it only took four nights to get us back to sleeping through the night.  My question is this:  I have been doing pu/pd for ten days at naptime and have never had her sleep more than 45 minutes. A few times she fell back asleep (after about an hour of pu/pd) but usually for about five minutes and jolted awake.  I know she's learning how to sleep without nursing down and it's only been ten days of doing that.  I'm very persistent and don't mind being in there but I also have a four year old.  THis is REALLY cutting into his behavior and I was willing to use the TV for a week or so to get her going with longer naps.  Now I'm starting to feel guilty and dread the whole pu/pd because there is about 30-45 mins of sleep and then an hour and a half of pu/pd and most times, she does not go back down.  She's tired, rubbing eyes, yawning and clearly needs more sleep.  I get to the four hour window and do a feed and bring her out for solids and activity.  Then she's tired way before the time she would be if there had been a 1.5-2 hour nap.  My four year old is feeling bad because he can't come in (obviously not good) and he can't be with me or participate and this is for nearly two hours in the afternoons-- 20 minutes at least to get her down and then back again for an hour and half of struggle (for her to not go down again).  I've been trying to put her down earlier and earlier, wondering if she's overstimulated and she goes down better but STILL wakes up at that 30-45 mark.  Could she not need the morning nap to be so long at this age?  The other day we were at a class in the morning, and she didn't sleep until 11:45, but slept in the car seat for an hour and half (on the way home and after we got home).  This hasn't happened in a long while, I am wondering if she's just not needing the 9-9:30 morning nap to be so long?  Would she sleep better if I held it off?  How long does it typically take for a 6 month old to improve naps?  My older one is a great kiddo, but is beginning to get upset when I say that I have to "go help sister get to sleep" and although we don't have TV very much, so it's like a treat for him to watch, he is starting to complain that he watched too much while I was helping the baby.  I know he's feeling the stress of this situation in his own way, too.  I'm so thankful for the nighttime sleep to be so much better so quickly, I was hoping the day time sleep would follow suit!  Help!

[puregrace]

I remember reading in BW Solves Problems that it takes a lot longer for nap time to get straightened out because you have less time to work with than at night, so hang in there.

I just went through trying to lengthen 45 min naps and found something that worked. My lo had never been a long sleeper, but is finally taking a 1 ½ hour nap in the a. m. (Progress!) We decided not to keep our baby in bed for more than 1 ½ because you’re right, pu/ pd is very stressful. So, if it took her 20 mins to fall asleep and she slept for 45, we’d only do pu/ pd for 20 mins or so. I didn’t actually expect her to fall asleep during that 20 mins. I was just trying to teach her that her naps needed to be longer. The book and the sleep interview with Tracy on here (if you haven’t read it, check it out) had different info about how long to do pu/ pd and I went with the sleep interview because it seemed more reasonable. I don’t know why doing pu/ pd works for extending naps, but it definitely seems to effect the next nap if not the current one.

Sorry if I missed this, but how long is your lo’s wake time? I’ve learned that what I usually think is OT, ISN’T. Save yourself a lot of frustration by not assuming OT.

Really, what I think has worked better for us than pu/ pd is going into her room about 5 mins before she typically woke up and putting my hands on her (one on her chest and one on her legs). This was to help her get through that 45 min jolt (or sooner depending on when your lo usually wakes). I read about doing that in the sleep interview, I think, and maybe on another thread somewhere. Don’t remember exactly where. I stayed till the 1 hour mark typically because she would normally have another jolt then. I did that for about a week. I hated giving up Y time when she was asleep but I figured it was better than pu/ pd. Sometimes it worked and sometimes it didn’t, but I stuck with it. It still hasn’t worked in the p.m. (maybe over stimulated, not sure), so I finally gave up with the p.m. nap.

She started teething again last week and started the early waking. So, this week I did the pressure at 40 mins- 1 hour for several days again and she’s sleeping through the jolt again. So, I know it works for us.

One more question, do you swaddle or control the arms in some way? Those are the worst in jolts. We use one of those sleep sacks and put her arms inside the holes so they’re slightly controlled.

J

[Analu]

Thanks for replying...I do not swaddle and did not swaddle.  I know EVERYone says its the best but both my children had such severe reflux and needed to be able to move their arms and leg and bodies in order to spit up.  I thought at this point it was too late to swaddle....but we do have sleep sacks, I am not sure how she would take being pinned in, but I could try.  I haven't heard of the idea about holding the legs, so I guess i haven't read the interview, I've just read the 2005 BW solves all your problems book.  that sounds like a great trick.  I kept being worried about the OT thing because she talks about it quite a bit.  Actually, today i was writing in the first 20 minutes of a nap of hers, here is what happened.  She was up at 7, ate, activity, then down at 9:10, awake at roughly 9:45, in crib with me doing pu/pd until nearly 11, b-fed, then ate solids, then was looking so tired in the high chair that I put her down again at 12:15 and within five minutes she was asleep.  She then slept until 2!!!  This was a first ever with the timing and not being nursed down and sleeping in her crib.  She actually woke up after 45 mins, I heard her on the moniter, but wasn't crying, just happy and then went back to sleep.  So maybe I'm not keeping her up long enough?  Thing is in the morning she is getting the tired look, and today with the 9:10 nap went down fairly easily...and was so tired after waking.  But clearly, she was thoroughly tired out by noon-time with little more than 30 mins of nap.  I like the idea of only being in the crib doing the pu/pd for 1.5 hours, otherwise it is really making me crazy.  For both naps now for ten days it's been getting pretty miserable...and hard on my little guy who wants mama back! Thanks so much for the advice!

[KathrynK]

I think she needs longer awake time.

Alex has reflux (although not as severe as your lo) and he has always had trouble getting past that 45 min mark if he is not "properly" tired. I wonder if reflux babies fidget more than others because they are often uncomfortable and that is what wakes them; certainly Alex is a huge fidgeter 

Many people have success with nap- extending techniques, like pu/pd, or holding through the jolts- that second one really worked for me when Sophie was tiny. But I don't think anything will work if lo is just not tired enough to sleep longer in the first place, kwim?

She was up at 7, ate, activity, then down at 9:10, awake at roughly 9:45, in crib with me doing pu/pd until nearly 11, b-fed, then ate solids, then was looking so tired in the high chair that I put her down again at 12:15 and within five minutes she was asleep.  She then slept until 2!!!  This was a first ever with the timing and not being nursed down and sleeping in her crib.  She actually woke up after 45 mins, I heard her on the moniter, but wasn't crying, just happy and then went back to sleep.

The other day we were at a class in the morning, and she didn't sleep until 11:45, but slept in the car seat for an hour and half

I don't think it's coincidence that when your dd was up for longer than normal that she then slept longer than normal- this tells me she needs longer A time. By 6mo many babies are handling almost 3hrs of A time (that's of course after a good nap). Also it tells me that if your dd is tired enough, she can easily go back to sleep on her own if she wakes at the 45min mark- that's great news. I don't think her short naps are due to her being nursed to sleep- from what you are saying it sounds like you have well & truly sorted that out and now she is able to fall asleep on her own, which is brilliant.

Our routine looks something like this at the moment:
7am wake & Eat
9.45-10ish Sleep
11.30am wake & Eat
2.15-2.30ish Sleep
3.45-4ish wake & E
6pm bath
6.30pm Eat
6.45pm Sleep

so you can see Alex is staying awake for almost 3hrs. It's only been like this for the last week or so; unti then he was still having a late catnap around 4.30-5ish as he kept doing a 45min nap in the morning, so he needed that extra nap to last until bedtime. But now I've extended his A time his naps are longer so he's dropped that catnap. Today I'm going to try to squash in 3 naps as yesterday he got OT, he was up 3.5hrs before bed which was too long (we had to go out at 3pm) so he needs to catch up a bit. This age is always tricky as they start to transition from needing 3 naps to needing 2. With Sophie I would have say 2 days of 2 naps then 1 day with slightly shorter A times and 3 naps so she could catch up on some sleep.

Does this make sense?
hope it helps, let us know how you get on x

[deb]

WOW, you have a lot more stamina than I ever did! Very impressive!

I hear you on the time spent away from the other child, too. It was hard enough that pu/pd DID NOT work with either of mine, nor did pat/shh. Gave each a full week and had only tears and a sore back to show for it. The reflux was probably part of the problem there (even with meds), but I think their Spirited (and in one case Touchy) personalities just didn't work with it.

When Josie was a baby, around 3 months her nap lengths took a nosedive and my very first Mother's Day gift was a phone consult with Tracy. I wrote down all the details I could remember and they're in a post on the Naps FAQ board: http://babywhispererforums.com/index.php?topic=649.0 .

Granted, some of the things would need to be tweaked for your baby's age, but the idea of gradually increasing Awake time was one of the keys, as was getting enough calories into her to ensure a long enough night sleep so she wouldn't already wake up tired.

Oh, for swaddling, you might try the Aussie Swaddle. It uses a HUGE piece of fabric, like 4' square (I used a 52" square cotton/poly tablecloth LOL) and while it's complicated enough you'd have to practice it on a doll (or teddy bear first a few times, it's nice because it leaves the baby's hands free by the head where they'd naturally go. They're covered by a fold of the fabric, so they're enclosed instead of loose and flailing, but the baby can rub her face on the fabric; Josie used it to help put herself to sleep after a while, and we used it with her till 7 months when we switched to a sleepsack (arms free) to transition her out of swaddling. (She'd break free around 2AM and need to be re-wrapped, restless little thing!

By the time I had my second one, who couldn't keep the same schedule two days running for probably her first two years, though, I spent a lot more time just rolling with it. She napped in the Baby Bjorn at least once a day (I might put her down in her crib once she was well and truly OUT) after a while because my older DD just needed more Mommy time. It wasn't totally BW, but it was what she and the family needed to get through the day(s), and I'm glad I decided to do it that way. Kept her from getting OT, for one thing.

Anyway, just wanted to give you a cyber-high five for all your persistence. Please make sure you cut yourself some slack - OK, a LOT of slack! - if it's not working the way the book says. Some babies just don't fit the mold, and that's OK too.  

[puregrace]

I know what you mean about focusing on OT. I definitely overreacted to the advice she gave and have been misidentifying it all along, I think. With the sleep sack trick, I normally just sneak in after she has fallen asleep and slip her arms in the holes. It makes a difference for us, but you'll have to see if it's important for you. Hey, if she went back to sleep after waking at 45 min, it may not matter if she does wake.