15 month old with nap issues?

[Evilmena]

So yesterday he woke up at 6:45am then I put him down at 10am and he slept for 30min.  PM I put him down at almost 2pm and he slept for 40 min.

I put him to bed at 7pm and he chatted very quietly on and off for about 40 min. and then he was definitely out.  He woke up at 7:45am this morning!

So I put him down for his 1st nap at 11am and I haven't head a peep.  It's already been over 1.5hours.  I'm going to leave him this time and see how long he sleeps.  Can't believe we're already at over 3 hours A time and the nap is at 11am (when he wakes later anyway).  I'm ashamed that I've been such a sleep guru for him and yet didn't stretch him as I should have.  Correction - I did but when he got OT we got caught in this vicious cycle and then I didn't stick to it.

We'll see what he does this PM, then I'll definitely need some guidance on where to go...so are you suggesting to keep the two naps for a bit since he's new to these A times?  You are my guru!

[Evilmena]

So his AM nap was 2 hours and 10 min.  Then I tried to put him down at 4pm and no go...he didn't fight it at all, in fact he was very quiet so if he did actually sleep I'd say it wasn't more than 20 minutes, I tend to think it was actually more quiet time than anything else.  I just put him down for the night at 7pm...I guess he could/should have gone down sooner since he was up at 1pm but he was actually quite happy.  In fact, I must say over this past weekend he's been a dream except when he's been way OS with his cousins around.  Let's say he should have been a bear or at least visibly tired/cranky today having been up for 6hours in the PMbut he was unusually not.  I know that if this were the norm he might be but for today he seemed to bear with it.  Bit off topic there!

So, I guess tomorrow I'll have my mom continue the AM awake time at 3.25h or 3.5h and see what happens.  He can obviously nap long (he's tended to always be a great morning sleeper in hindsight).  So should I just keep the morning nap long as I stretch it to occur at a later time like 12pm'ish?  If he's sleeping 2 hours is 5hours A time in the PM okay?  He's done it for quite some time and his night sleep is great...or should I move bedtime up?  He can do the early bedtime as well it seems but if the later bedtime means later wakeups maybe better?  Or should I put the PM nap later to like 1pm?  I guess it depends on when he wakes...with 1 nap at his age what is the average A time for them?

[becky1969]

Wow! What progress!

If your LO can handle the 1 nap and a long A time in the PM, then I say go for it! You're there and have made the 2-1 nap transition! Yippeee!!! And, it sounds like we even still have some stretching we could do -- another 30-60 minutes? So, that would move nap to around noon which is perfect!

If his night sleep is OK with a 7 pm bedtime, keep it there.  If you start getting night crazies, then move bedtime earlier and see how that goes.  But honestly, I think you've got one of those lovely children who make the transition with little to no bloodshed!    If things start to fall apart, let me know, and then we'll take a 2nd look at everything.

congratulations! I think you've just made the last nap change! Now it's 1 nap from here until there's no nap anymore.  WTG!

[Evilmena]

Okay, so 3 days have past and things have changed a bit - looks like we're not into the 1 nap free and clear yet...which I've heard is possible in this 2 to 1 switch - that some days are two nap days?

Anyhow, here's how they breakdown:

Day 1                         Day 2                Today
W 7:45am                   W 7:15am           W 7:05am
S 11am-1pm                S 11am-12pm      S 11am-12pm
S 4-4:30pm (1/2 or 1h) S 3pm-4pm         
S 7:30pm                    S 7pm

So, we'll see how this afternoon goes, I suspect he'll sleep 1/2-1hour.  So what's the problem?  We've stretched him to 4 hours for a few days...maybe I sat on it too long?  Could the extra 15 minutes make that kind of a difference?  It's also difficult convincing my mom that although he seems tired at 10:30am she has to wait until 11am - I don't get how she doesn't relate the new found sleep to the stretching!!!   

Tomorrow I'll get her to try for 4.25 A time after waking and see if that makes a difference. 

[becky1969]

  Some people are slow to tweak to the sleeping thing. 

Yes, absolutely during the 2-1 switch you can absolutely get some 2 nap days, some 1.  He somes comfortable where you are now -- he's getting adequate daytime sleep AND he's STTN a good amt.  I wouldn't worry about it.  IN another week or two you'll probably be able to stretch his A time again (and you wn't be getting that yawning at 10:30 anymore!  ), and then you'll be closer to a noon schedule, and that's where 1 nap typically starts.

Let's leave him here for a bit until things go wonky again.  I hesitate to have you stretch him all the way until noon b/c that could backfire either with short nap or NWs/EWs.

[Evilmena]

So he did sleep an hour for the second nap yesterday.  Then I put him to bed at 7:30pm and this morning he awoke at 6:55am.  Yikes!

I have my mom keeping him at around 4 hours A time so she said he was tired and fumbly (when he walks) between 10-10:30am so I told her to put him to bed at 10:45am this morning, don't know how long it took him to fall asleep but before 12:30pm he was up and she said he was whiny and pooped - sorry TMI, this kid poops and eats a LOT!  I told her to try again at 2-2:30pm since he slept so little.  Guess it will be an earlier bedtime tonight.

I'll keep the A time at 4hour as per your suggestion and see what happens.

[Evilmena]

Update, she put him down before 2pm and he slept 1.5 hrs...guess he was tired!!  He's never done that where he slept 1/2 hour and then had a longer afternoon nap.  Perhaps teething combined with new schedule, who knows.  At least he got some rest.

[becky1969]

That's actually what we look for at 15 months: 30-45 minute AM nap and long (1.5 hour) PM nap! If you can keep routine there, that would be GREAT! In fact, if mom wants to put him down at 10:30 when he's sleepy and wake at 11, and then do 2nd nap at 2 and let sleep as long as he wants that would be PERFECT! Then, as he stretches he will move that AM nap later and later -- once it'sat 11:30, we jump to 1 nap.

So, looks like he's going to do the 'normal' 2-1 switch afterall! That's cool!  I think he's doing phenominally well.  You got an 11.5 hour night! That's fantastic!

[becky1969]

Have you gone back to read your initial post? you guys are doing GREAT! You now have him on the 'typical' routine for 15 month olds instead of the 5-8 month old routine he was on!  WTG!!!!

[Evilmena]

Thanks so much!!  It was all your help so thank you!!

Okay, well I'll 'try' to get her to do that but she's so of the ilk of not waking a sleeping baby.  At least the weekend is here though and I can do it myself.  Thing is, he's done the 1/2 hour nap in the AM before and still slept crappy in the afternoon...or is it that the 1/2 hour is occuring after 4 hours that makes the difference? 

So the first few days when he was sleeping a couple of hours for the AM nap, was that because of the stretching and him catching up?  And therefore now is doing the 'typical' routine?  This sleep stuff is so confusing!  lol

[Tulip00]

THANK YOU SO MUCH BOTH OF YOU! (and so articulate too - you must be american!)

I have had the EXACT same issues this week with my 14months DS and I have read every word in this string and will do the same. He has just started taking a good 20-40mins of chatting and singing and rasberry blowing and crying sometimes so I know we need to cut down on the daytime naps. Like you say - he's got a 9month old routine - and I realise its me holding him back as it suits me more. So I have ticked myself off and will try to put him down about 10.30 for a 10.45 sleep. 

My worry is that he has 2 classes at 11am in the week and not sure how to structure sleep around them.. can you suggest anything?

THANKS AGAIN
Tulip (London!)

[becky1969]

Aw, Tulip! Glad to  know we're helping vicariously!    That's what BW is all about!

First, as you make LOs nap later, you may want to take it a bit slow -- no more than a 30 minute stretch at a time and you may even want to go 15 minutes, depending on temperment.  For the class problem, I'd just put him down for nap earlier so that when you wake after 30 minutes it's just in time for leaving for class.  I don't know how long it takes you to go to your class, but maybe 10 am nap, wake at 10:30 and then time to get him to class.  My bub sort of hates being rushed right out the door so we'd probably either do a 9:45 nap, waking at 10:15 OR if 9:45 is too early, we'd do 10 waking at 10:20.  At this age a 20 min nap can be enough to help them make it.  If you do a 20 min nap make A time a bit shorter, esp. since you're doing an activity with him -- so maybe only 2.5-3 hours between naps.


Evilmena: It's hard to say why that nap is short.  I have a feeling it's the longer A time that's doing it.  He may be a bit overstretched, but for our purposes we don't care!    He may start wanting to nap longer in AM, and that's when we cut it short on purpose so that we can get him ready for the 2-1 nap switch.  At this age, if they nap too long in AM they'll often skip PM nap which can make him OT by bedtime and give you NWs/EWs etc. (as you probably know!). 

Let's just see what happens at moms house before really giving her the business.    If he naps long in the morning and refuses a PM nap, then you can explain to her that too much sleep in the AM makes him unable to rest PM and it's really ruining nights and mornigns for you.  But he may limit morning nap on his own.  Mine never did -- I always had to wake him up myself.  And I protested, just like your mama is, but the BW mods really encouraged me and it made all the difference in the world during our 2-1 switch.

[Evilmena]

Tulip - glad we could be of service...but really all I'm 'serving' as is a bad example!  haha  Oh, and I'm actually Canadian!   

Becky, thanks again for the suggestions.  The wakings are getting earlier (in 5 min. increments it seems) so here's today so far:

Last night S 7:15pm
W 6:45am
S 10:30am
W 11:30am (45min-1hour)
I've told her to put him down at 3pm'ish for his second.

I'm wondering also if the EW's are a result of me putting him to bed later - remember he was on average going to bed at 6:30pm, 7pm the latest and lately I'm been putting him down later than that due to the later nap - thing is I haven't tried the still earlier bedtime to know whether he would fight it - I honestly don't think he would as he didn't before.

So for this weekend then when I'm in charge ( ) should I wake him after 1/2 hour in the AM if it looks like he's going to sleep more?  And then do what, a shortened A time - by how much?  Oh, he HATES being woken up but I'll do it if it's what's going to make this work!

[becky1969]

Yeah, my guy hates to be woken too.  He got used to it after a bit.  And it's probably only for about a month and hopefully by then A time will have stretched so that 1 nap is in the offing.

Um, I think let's wake after 45 min for that AM nap.  That's 1 sleep cycle and may be less likely to mess him up emotionally.    Then, 3 hours later offer PM nap and see what happens.  Prepare for some failure as we figure out the 'magic' formula.  More than one mother has had an emotional breakdown while going thru the 2-1 switch, so don't think you'll escape unscarred! 

Yes, try earlier bedtime and see if that helps things if EWs are starting to happen.  But not sure if an 11.5 hour night constitutes an EW! This may just be where his toddler self is comfortable.  We expect around 11.5 hour nights at this age, and 2-2.5 hours daytime sleep.  That's about what he's doing!

[Evilmena]

I'm back with an update!

Well, the weekend went pretty well, but this week so far he's had two consecutive days, maybe three now where he'll sleep his morning nap (4 hours of A time) and sleep for an hour and then fight the pm nap - meaning none.  So I've been putting him to bed at 6:30pm both nights.  Last night he awoke crying about 45 minutes later (but I did have the garage door to the house open when his dad was pulling in so I can't be certain if it was that or just a waking).  So, what should I do?  Mom said that he awoke at 12pm and so I had told her to put him down at 4pm'ish but no go.  She said he had already been rubbing his eyes from 2:30pm...should I have had her put him down at 3pm?

Should I go back to stretching the morning because he's been fighting the afternoon thing now for a while.  I honestly don't think he'll drop the morning one and I know she won't wake him (although he's only sleeping an hour anyway), so should I just push it back until it ends up at noon??