Where do I begin?

[mokey_cat]

Hi T

After a broken nap, I would only normally decrease the next A time by 5 mins if anything unless there was a significant period of time spent awake during the nap (30-45 mins for axample) and even then I would only shorten the next A by 10 mins max.

I think looking at your routine that he probably needed the 1st nap early due to the NW's.  He had a good nap here (although it was broken it was a decent enough length) so I would say he would have managed his normal A time so I would have maybe pushed it forward by 10mins so he did a 2hr55 or 3hrs.  I think the fact he did a broken nap of 2 x 45 mins means he maybe was UT - what do you think? 

After the CN, DD would usually do 1.5 hours but if you think he cant handle it, then maybe aim for a 7.15 bedtime.  He had been up since 6.40 so I think 7.15 is really the latest (12.5 hour day, 11.5 hour night, well in an ideal world eh  ).  That 15 mins might help with the early NW's.

It so difficult to sort out day naps and A's when they have NW' and EW's isnt it!!  I think though that afternoon nap looks like it can be sorted 1st, then we can try and get the morning one sorted.

I let DD sleep on her tummy last night.  I normally tuck her in do tight so she cant roll but last night she was just in her sleeping bag and slept on her side, then rolled onto her tummy and stayed asleep!!  In fact we didnt even get an EW  .  She HATES tummy time as well  .  Thats the 1st decent night she has had in ages.  So now Im not sure when she needs a nap haha.

Hugs
Laura
X

[Barbaara]

Hi ladies,

T, I agree with Laura on her analysis of your routine .  Hugs to you, must be so hard to have that many NW's! I'm sending some super sleep vibes your way! 

Laura, happy to hear your LO had a better night!  Let's hope she's going to repeat that tonight. 

Barbara
x

[TurboMum]

Hi ladies,

Barbara - the sleep vibes certainly helps!

Laura - we had BIG difference today  - quite shocking as well!

DS had A of 3hr10min in AM and 3hr20min PM and no CN!   But naps are better in general so I think you are right he was UT for his naps then OT for the day!!!  Going down was fairly easier as well... so I am really really just soooo soooo PLEASED at the moment!

Here is our day:

Awake: 5.55
E. 6.15 BF + 7.30 solids
A.
S. 9.10-10.01 cried really HARD during this time until 10.17 then slept till 11.06 (generally I am quite happy but not sure what that crying was about? )
E. 11.15 BF + 12.55 solids
A.
S. 2.25 - 3.52 (Non-broken, NO PEEP!! )
E. 4.02
A.
E. 6.00
S. 6.30

I know I shouldn't have increased his A this MASSIVELY but he was really resisting going down, so I had to follow his will...here are some details for today's naps:

Nap 1: I actually started WD from 8.50 aiming for 3hr A but DS got upset immediately when went into his room but quite happy to be taken out of it and I had to do it a couple of times, out and read a couple of books before he eventually gave in and went down at 9.10

Nap 2: We went out to do some errands during his A time and he was getting fussy in the shops at around 1.15pm so I quickly brought him home. I think he shortly dozed off a bit in the buggie at around 1.30pm (probably for about 5-10min max), and when we got home he was quite happy. I started WD 1.55 aiming for 2pm asleep near 3hr A but DS fought going down so I took him out read him 2 books, in his room again at 2.05 but he was still pushing me away, kicking his legs when I lay him in his cot, seemed happy. However started showing tired signs quite frequently by 2.15 and slowly dozing off in my arms around 2.25. During this time he was still a bit hard to settle as stretching/kicking legs all the time even when he looked asleep. I wonder what this leg-kicking means? OT? or he can handle even more A?

OK, he's just woke up at 7.10pm, 40min after asleep - does this mean he's OT? Also, what do you think what A he should do tomorrow? I am a bit weary of his A today!

Anyway, that's a big difference we had today... but looks like something positive??? I'm crossing my fingers for tonight - please please go away NWs!!!


Please let me know your thoughts!

Thanks a million!!

T xx

[mokey_cat]

Hey T - Good news    That was a great pm nap!!

I know you increased A time dramatically but as long as he coped well during his A time and his NW's are not too bad tonight then I would maybe stick with the 3/3hr15 A time tomorrow. 

Ok - Im not too sure what the crying was about during his 1st nap.  It was after 50 mins so it could be anything  .  Is he teething because my LO sleeps 50ish mins when she is sore.  I would maybe decrease this 1st A to 3hr/3hr5 and see what happens.  A lot of babies need a shorter morning A especially if there have been NW's.  What is your wind down like?  Mine is sooo short otherwise DD gets agitated and cries so I change her nappy, put her in a sleeping bag, close curtains and then straight into bed, kiss and leave.  I try to give her less stimulating activities for 10 mins before hand.

2nd A - I would keep the same as today, maybe 5 mins less just in case the leg kicking was OT.  It worked  .  So try to get him in cot and asleep by 3hr15 and I hope you get another unbroken nap.  If this one continues to be good, I am pretty sure we can sort the morning one as well.  At least we will have an idea of his A time iykwim.

Last A time was pretty short after that good nap so I think again that he might have been UT at bedtime leading to that 1st waking.  I might be wrong but let me know the NW's and we can figure that one out.

Let me know how tonight goes so we can judge if these A times are worked for him today.  I am very impressed you went without a CN    I think we are right that he is UT though so hope we can get you back on track.  It was the main reason for ALL our problems and if I remember rightly, the problem that Barbara had when her LO was not napping well at the start of this thread 

Good luck for tonight

Laura
X

[Barbaara]

Oh, I had sooo many problems at the start of this tread!    But indeed, the main problem were UT naps and trying to find the right A times.  I'm still so grateful to you for helping me out Laura!    I was at my wit's end at the time.

So T, don't worry, we'll help you crack this problem.  BTW so great your LO gave you a decent pm nap!  I agree with Laura, as long as LO is happy during all of A time, then there's no problem.  I had to drastically up my DD's A time as well, I just hadn't realised how much she really needed until she did her normal A time after a short nap.

Hope you didn't get too many NW's last night.

x

[TurboMum]

Hi ladies,

Thanks soooo much for your support! I can be really optimistic about this!

However our night wasn't good.   He woke almost every 1-2hours at 7.10, 8.10, 9.28, 12.30 (I BF), 2.45, 4.45-5.30 when I failed to get him back to sleep so DH took over and get him back to sleep until 6.40 when we started the day.

Although it was fairly easy to get him back to sleep, it is NOT pleasant having to get up sooo many times at night and I really prefer not to! 

I don't think he is teething as so far I haven't seen any signs at all... but then I could be wrong as things are always changing, aren't they? I'll keep the As for him today and see how it goes.

Last A time was pretty short after that good nap so I think again that he might have been UT at bedtime leading to that 1st waking.  I might be wrong but let me know the NW's and we can figure that one out.

I was trying to keep 12.5hr day and 11.5hr night to give him sufficient time for night sleep..... do you think I should have leave him till 7pm for bed instead? But then wouldn't his day too long in that case? He was falling asleep when I BF at 6pm though but when I get him off breasts and get him ready for bed, he did fight a little but then eventually it was fairly easy to get him down last night. Hmm.... not sure how I should deal with this?

Barbara - how much A did you increase your LO then at the time when you found out she was UT? I was very very scared yesterday as DS's A went from 2.5hr to nearly 3.5hr....   I almost had a heart-attach!! haha....

Will keep you ladies posted... Thanks soooo much for help!!!!!

 

T xx

[TurboMum]

To add a bit more, my WD wasn't long really... just go into his room, put on white noise cd, close curtain, and maybe change him into sleep bag but depends on weather and his mood ( he sometimes doesn't like it!) and then will humming alongside white noise to get him sleepy then lay him down his cot. I never achieved leaving him awake there.... once he's in his cot, i'll pat him and sit with him for 20min before I leave. (I wonder if you still need to do that with a 6.5month old?)

Reading books yesterday wasn't really my usual WD routine but rather just to make him calm and sleepy....coz really scared of him being OT....

[mokey_cat]

Hi T.  Sorry you had a rough night. 

I think you should try these new A's for a few more days (as long as DS is happy enough during his A time), and see what happens with the NW's.  If they continue then maybe we should rethink 

You are right to aim for the 12.5 hour day.  But if he has a good pm nap, I would be inlclined to push bedtime back a tiny bit to try and push his morning wake up too.  What time would be ideal for you for him to wake?  If its 6am, then I would stick with the 6.30pm bedtime.  If you would rather 7am, then I would try and get him as close to 7.15/7.30 as you can.  I suppose its difficult if he has EW's though.  I always go by my LO's normal wake up time which is 7.30.  This morning she woke at 6am and played/chatted and maybe dozed a bit but I did not get her until 7.30am, then her 1st nap was at her usual time 10.30am.  But then she does not cry when she wakes early.  Im not too sure how to deal with these EW's if your LO cries when he wakes early.  Do you think he gets around 14 hours total sleep in a day?

Let me know how tonight goes. 

[TurboMum]

TBH I don't think he even gets up to 12-13hrs total sleep a day. Day naps max would be 3hrs (broken as well), and night would be around 9-10hrs if not counting the NWs... and sometimes he wakes over an hour at a time at night... that's why I'm just desperate to fix his sleep problem. This little guy SERIOUSLY need some help and sleep!!

Today we had a broken nap day again. His A was 3hrs, so I'm not sure if that was the problem. I did try to aim for the same A he did yesterday, but then he was getting sleepy and tired at around 2hr45min every time so I put him down as I was scared of making him OT.. .....but I think maybe I should have sticked with longer A? It is really hard when you want you LO to stay up longer while he was trying to say "I'm tired!" isn't it? Do you think I should ignore it and just go by clocks? He is not 7 months yet, I'm just really afraid of pushing his boundaries too far....

Here is our day - in case you can spot something unusual.

EW - 4.45-5.30, then slept until 6.40

Awake 6.40
E. 6.50 BF  +7.40 solids
A.
S. 9.45 - 10.21 - 11.21 (jerked within 7-10min of sleep and slept quite fitfully)
E. 11.30 BF  + 12.30 solids
A.
S. 2.21 - 2.55 - 3.50 (he was getting sleepy at 2pm so I got him down at 2.21 although I wanted to hold him up a bit longer but then really scared of OT.... )
E. 4.00 BF + 5.00 solids
A.
E. 6.40
S. 7.00

So today's naps were like waking up at 35min mark and then slept for almost an hour afterwards. Do you think these look like UT naps?

He just woke at 7.50pm, the A before bed was 3hr10min and he also briefly woke when I lay him down at 7.10pm, do you think this made him OT and hence the 7.50pm wake?  He does sleep very fitfully as well (as just I was holding him for half an hour before putting him down and his hands and feet just kept moving now and then!), does this mean he is OT before bed? 

I can only wish to have a same wake up time in the morning/and the same bedtime at night but I totally have no control of it. It is now entirely depending on his wakeup time in the morning. But I will try to aim for 12.5hr day and 11.5hr night everyday.

I look forward to read your message again if you have any thoughts! I will try to stick with 3.25hr A for him tomorrow and see if that magic pm nap would come back! Fingers crossed!

Thank you big time!!!

T xx

[mokey_cat]

Hi T.  I would stick with the 3 hours A time again tomorrow morning, maybe even 2hrs45.  The fitful sleep might mean he was a bit OT.  Then next A of 3hrs/3hrs15.  If he is showing genuine signs of tiredness, then I wouldn't ignore them.  I usually give DD 15 mins just to make sure she is genuinely tired because her tired signs are really unreliable.

Do you have to hold him to sleep every time?  If you do, I think that may be the reason for all the NW's.  DD will have many brief wakings and when she was dependent on the dummy for sleep, I would have to get up 8+ times a night to put it back on because she could not sleep without it.  So if your LO cannot sleep independently, then each brief awaking he has at night, he needs you to help him back to sleep.  Have you tried PUPD for these NW's, or have you tried putting him down drowsy but awake?  I think maybe until he can fall asleep on his own, he will call for you during the night to help him.

I understand its very difficult to sleep train when he gets OT and it seems like a vicious circle but I think its important for his to learn  how to sleep on his own to help with these NW's.  Have you been over to the props board or PUPD board (ive never used it myself so Im not very sure how it works). 

My LO ALWAYS has a brief waking after 45mins to 1 hour after falling asleep at night and also during naps at 30-45 mins.  So maybe your DS is the same but just cant get back to sleep himself  .  What do you think? 

I really hope we can get it sorted for you T as you must be sooooo tired!!  Does your DH help you out a lot?  Do you get any time to yourself?  Its very difficult isnt it    You are doing a GREAT job though and your DS is very lucky to have a mummy who cares so much about him 

Let me know how the night goes.

X

[TurboMum]

OK, I will stick with a shorter A tomorrow morning and pay attention to his tired cues.

Do you have to hold him to sleep every time?  If you do, I think that may be the reason for all the NW's.  DD will have many brief wakings and when she was dependent on the dummy for sleep, I would have to get up 8+ times a night to put it back on because she could not sleep without it.  So if your LO cannot sleep independently, then each brief awaking he has at night, he needs you to help him back to sleep.  Have you tried PUPD for these NW's, or have you tried putting him down drowsy but awake?  I think maybe until he can fall asleep on his own, he will call for you during the night to help him.

Well... it was recently when he started the numerous NWs that I started to hold him a bit longer to get him to sleep as at that time we thought he was having some discomfort and I wanted to get him out of the OT cycle.

I used to put him down drowsy and he could go to sleep by himself. But I never left him awake cos I don't know whether or not if he'll go to sleep by himself, or if he does, how long it will take him as I'm just soooo scared of OT!!! However I do think he can sleep independently as there were some nights when he had NWs and I was too tired and too sleepy to hold him, I just leave him in his cot but sat on the side with him if he was calm. He would toss and turn a bit but he would then fall asleep by himself and when he did that I was really really proud of him! But if he cries then I would have to hold him a bit. Based on this I suspect that his NWs were caused by this (but then I may be wrong!). I still believe that if I can get him out of the OT cycle - of course by improving his day naps - his nights will be better.

And I am very reluctant to use PUPD as I AM very weak in taking his cries..... I tried a few times, sometimes it worked others not. When it wasn't working, I felt soooooooo guilty for letting him cry that hard!!! Then next time I just give in. I know I shouldn't but I just couldn't do it. TBH, if I can't get him out this time, I'm prepared just to ride it out (oh dear! )

My LO ALWAYS has a brief waking after 45mins to 1 hour after falling asleep at night and also during naps at 30-45 mins.  So maybe your DS is the same but just cant get back to sleep himself  .  What do you think? 

Was that for paci? What did you do then to get rid of it? I'd like to ask you actuallly how you get Holly to go to sleep by herself AWAKE? That is just dream for DS to do!

Thank you for your encouragement You are sooooo kind!!! I know with your help I can get this sorted (well, we did yesterday pm, didn't we? )  Yep DH can help a bit but then he gets grumpy easily when tired...  and I just don't have the energy to look after another one  so I just rather do it myself... hopefully I can get DS sorted out soon and everyone will be happy in this house!

Thank you soo much for your support honey! You are FAB! 

Will keep you posted!

T xx

[Barbaara]

Hello,

Looks like I'm not checking posts enough these days! 

T, answering your question concerning A times: I don't remember how much extra time I added, but I noticed one day she could go her normal A time after a short nap.  So I'm guessing after that she always did about 45 mins - 1h more.  I'm not quite sure any more though.

I'm thinking Laura might be on to something with you holding your LO.  You may have become some sort of prop, because you've been holding him too long.  At this age when you're doing PU/PD you have to put them down almost immediately after picking up, otherwise they don't really learn how to self sooth.  I may actually be the real reason for your NW's.  What do you think?

For the longest time I stayed with DD until she fell asleep as well, as I found it scary to leave the room with her being still wide awake. But I gradually became a distraction to her so she ended up taking longer and longer to fall asleep.  Now I put her in bed wide awake and walk out immediately.  I only go back in if she won't settle and starts crying.  In the beginning that happens qute often as they're so used to you being by their side, but it's helped with learning her to fall asleep on her own.

I'm sorry I'm not answering your posts more quickly, will try to do a better job. 

xx

[TurboMum]

Thanks Barbara! That's ok - I know everyone is busy in these days!
 
So to both you ladies, how long did you do this immediate walk-out before your LO learned to sleep on their own? And how long each time did they take to settle to sleep? How early did you put them down for them to sleep before they get OT? Just wanna to get some idea so that I can try too. I've been walking out in 10min today (instead of 20!) and he seems doing fine... so will try GW with this...

I'll check in later...

Thanks soooo much!

T xx

[mokey_cat]

Hi T.

I defo agree with Barbara that you should put DS in his cot and leave him.  If he cries go back in, try to settle without lifting him from the cot but if he is really crying pick him up, settle and put STRAIGHT back down and leave again.  And dont respond until he really needs you, so dont go in at all if he is just fussing or mantra crying.  If you are questioning if he needs you, then the chances are he doesnt. 

During a nap or NW, you need to give him the opportunity every single time to settle on his own or he wont learn how to sleep on his own again.  Honestly, it took me ages at the start as I would go in at every cry but I posted a question and one of the mods told me that she needs a chance every time to settle.  It was only then that DD started sleeping without me patting her to sleep every time!!

It will be hard at the start and you always respond to a real cry so you are not leaving him to cry it out so dont worry.  I know you are worried about OT, but honestly, 1 or 2 days of APOP will sort it out if its really really bad  .

So when he wakes, hang back for a few mins and think about his cry and if it seems like he really really needs you, then go back on the room.  Leave him be if you think not fully crying or if its just fussing/mantra.  Just try your hardest not to intervene if he doesnt need you which will give him the opportunity to fall asleep on his own.  He may not sleep well for a few days and spend a while getting to sleep but you wont regret it as hopefully he will be sleeping better in a few days.  And I will say that sometimes DD put on a bit of a show with crying before going to sleep but i leave her to it and she will go to sleep 

Hope you had some better naps today.  Im pretty sure when we remove the holding prop, your NW's will really reduce!!

Hugs
Laura
X

Oh yeah i forgot to answer your question  , my LO wakes briefly everytime at 45 mins after I put her to bed - not for paci, just anytime.  She hasnt had the paci since 4 months or so but she still either stirs or wakes and turns over at the 45 mins.  If she is teething or in pain she will fully wake at this point and cry and I have to resettle but usually she goes back to sleep pretty quickly.  I watch her on the monitor and she will open her eyes, turn over or lift up her legs but then she will go back to sleep but if your LO has got used to being held to sleep, then that is maybe why he cries for you so soon after bedtime rather than OT iykwim.

Let me know how you got on with naps etc today 

[Barbaara]

It's sooo hard not to go rushing in every time you here them making a sound.  For a while DD would wake up during the night and sometimes it took her up to 40 mins to start crying.     She had a tummy bug back then and she would wake up to poo but as you can't know for sure, I waited every time until she started to cry before I went in.  You hear stories about parents who end up with a habitual waking after their baby was sick and I absolutely didn't want that to happen.

My DD stirs/wakes up after about an 1h after going to sleep for the night as well.  She almost always settles on her own again, unless she's not feeling well.

How's you're day been?

x